tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post2457514549482801554..comments2023-10-07T22:37:49.244+13:00Comments on The Hand Mirror: Friday Feminist - Margaret Sangerkatyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15742280289613450293noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-18172484740509387402009-03-17T10:11:00.000+13:002009-03-17T10:11:00.000+13:00Grace and Peace, Good afternoon readers, My ma...Grace and Peace,<BR/><BR/> Good afternoon readers,<BR/><BR/> My maternal grandmother attended Columbia U. for two years circa 1917 and met Margaret Sanger.<BR/><BR/> About fifteen years later as a rural school teacher and part time health aide, she began to stock condoms ( about the only birth control mode known in the mid '30's ) and even wrote a simple and simply-but-clearly illustrated little tract to introduce the condoms concept in Kentucky Appalachia.<BR/> She titled it "Put It On, Before You Put It In" ( she didn't waste time with euphemisms ), was soon thereafter fired from her job and taken to court on a charge of obscenity.<BR/> She was acquited, but moved to St. Louis.<BR/> Margaret Sanger had influence, and she was in my grandmother's personal pantheon with Eleanor Roosevelt and Dorothy Day.<BR/><BR/> Be well, <BR/> Michael B. Music, S.Q.<BR/> (415) 431-1905Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-91045896240119158512009-01-25T11:45:00.000+13:002009-01-25T11:45:00.000+13:00d'oh, I thought I'd written this last night, but o...d'oh, I thought I'd written this last night, but obviously the "stubby finger syndrome" is acting up again.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, my "democracy" analogy did have a point, if not well expressed.<BR/><BR/>Washington = "pro-democracy"<BR/>Sanger = "feminist"<BR/><BR/>The problem is that although the principles they espoused and fought for were and are laudable (and their achievements were significant), "feminism" and "pro-democracy" were limited only to those people they thought about as fully capable human beings.<BR/><BR/>It's not necessarily the "~ism" that's changed definition, just what we mean by "ALL men" or "ALL women", especially when talking about rights. And that's what makes it problematic.<BR/><BR/>Oh, and Hugh, it's not my place to follow the digression into whether someone else believes that rights are subjective or objective, so I hope that's not the point you were expecting me to address.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-58153671250518301712009-01-24T19:28:00.000+13:002009-01-24T19:28:00.000+13:00I wouldn't say she is not a feminist, Hugh. Just ...I wouldn't say she is not a feminist, Hugh. Just that as a feminist, she is problematic.<BR/><BR/>I'm capable of acknowledging shade and nuance, seeing that some things a person says are fascinating, and others dubious. Ultimately, I look at the arguments people make, rather than accepting arguments from authority. I <I>like</I> Sanger's take on mothering and birth control and freedom. That doesn't mean I endorse everything she said or did.Deborahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14182573274494086468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-65766409270487428432009-01-24T18:01:00.000+13:002009-01-24T18:01:00.000+13:00AWickenI'm not quite sure how this addresses what ...AWicken<BR/><BR/>I'm not quite sure how this addresses what I'm asking. Could you rephrase it, please?DPF:TLDRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06372937855256319716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-33933395689778350052009-01-24T17:31:00.000+13:002009-01-24T17:31:00.000+13:00Hugh,you're beginning to concentrate on phrasing o...Hugh,<BR/><BR/>you're beginning to concentrate on phrasing of the moment, rather than the concept that beliefs about people's rights expand when society begins to accept that "people" includes all humans, not just a few.<BR/><BR/>Look at "democracy" - it originally only applied to male property-owners who weren't slaves. Over a couple of thousand years it now includes poor people, women, people of different ethnicities and naturalised citizens. And slavery is illegal.<BR/><BR/>As I recall my history books, a number of the US "founding fathers" (there's another book, right there) were slave owners. Were they people who believed in democracy? They were then. But by today's standard? If George Washington came into a community meeting on electoral reform, what would people think? <BR/><BR/>People are complicated, and the context by which humans make advances is as important as each advance we make.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-75086188102513791262009-01-24T15:57:00.000+13:002009-01-24T15:57:00.000+13:00When you say 'want certain basic rights to apply t...When you say 'want certain basic rights to apply to all women', is this a relative or objective set of basic rights? By which I mean, are there certain rights which must be conceded, or is it more important that the view be consistent across the spectrum of the female gender, regardless of race, class, sexuality etc?DPF:TLDRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06372937855256319716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-78654732524015735012009-01-24T15:48:00.000+13:002009-01-24T15:48:00.000+13:00@hugh - modern definitions of feminism are increas...@hugh - modern definitions of feminism are increasingly coming to explicitly include an acknowledgement of broad-spectrum feminism - i.e. a suggestion tht feminism which is just for white middle-class women isn't sufficient to fulfill the meaning of the word. And just very conservatively, a feminist ought to want certain basic rights to apply to *all* women - the radical belief that *all* women are people, not just some of them.,Tuihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11028316277815052897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-87336840784210270802009-01-24T14:16:00.000+13:002009-01-24T14:16:00.000+13:00So... why would you say Sanger is potentially not ...So... why would you say Sanger is potentially not a feminist? I realise that there's no hard and fast definition, but she seems to believe that the gender relations status quo (as it was at the time) is unacceptable, and to be committed to a program to rectifying it. The things that make her dodgy seem to be to do with things that are not directly connected to gender relations.<BR/><BR/>To say Sanger isn't a feminist because of her atttitude to the poor or non-whites is rather similar, IMO, to saying somebody isn't a socialist because they're sexist or racist. Which would be rather ridiculous.DPF:TLDRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06372937855256319716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-39187124226744713692009-01-24T13:18:00.000+13:002009-01-24T13:18:00.000+13:00Both, Hugh.I think it's very important to understa...Both, Hugh.<BR/><BR/>I think it's very important to understand where we have come from, which is why I tend to emphasise 'older' feminists in these Friday Feminist posts.<BR/><BR/>Being a feminist for well-educated white women is a good thing. Well-educated, white women are women too. Being a feminist <B>solely</B> for well-educated white women is a problem. Freedom from oppression is a universal goal, not just a goal for people like yourself. That's why I find her problematic.<BR/><BR/>Also, just posting something doesn't mean that I agree with it...Deborahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14182573274494086468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-40187912446498100612009-01-24T12:26:00.000+13:002009-01-24T12:26:00.000+13:00If we keep brushing it under the carpet, don't we ...<I>If we keep brushing it under the carpet, don't we eventually end up negating the very real problems that are and were specific to non-caucasian women, disabled women and women of low education?</I><BR/><BR/>And it bears emphasizing, IMO, that those three subcategories (particularly the first and last) encompass the vast majority of women.<BR/><BR/>Deborah, when you say that Sanger is 'problematic as a feminist', are you uncertain whether the label 'feminist' applies, or just saying she's problematic to reconcile with the remainder of feminist thought?DPF:TLDRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06372937855256319716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-80674466104378356732009-01-24T12:16:00.000+13:002009-01-24T12:16:00.000+13:00That's a fair point about the date Deborah, but......That's a fair point about the date Deborah, but... <BR/><BR/>It's not that I want to ignore the good she <I>did</I> do, but ignoring the problematic aspects seems really disrespectful to those who bore the brunt of them (and lets face it, she was <I>actively</I> involved in trying to deny certain women the rights she wanted for herself and others like her). <BR/><BR/>I feel that Margaret Sanger is almost always treated in soundbites just to avoid the problem, and as a result, she's lauded as a hero and very few people (including me, until relatively recently) are even aware of that other side. <BR/><BR/>I guess I just hope that where a feminist's work was or is so two-sided, there'd be some small recognition of that accompanying the soundbites. If we keep brushing it under the carpet, don't we eventually end up negating the very real problems that are and were specific to non-caucasian women, disabled women and women of low education?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-1254000792968502392009-01-24T11:56:00.000+13:002009-01-24T11:56:00.000+13:00Yes, 'though as Alison says, she's definitely prob...Yes, 'though as Alison says, she's definitely problematic as a feminist. That's why I always try to include the date - she was writing nearly 100 years ago, and our understanding of what it means to be pro-women / feminist has moved a long way since then.Deborahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14182573274494086468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-22223040780833553762009-01-24T09:49:00.000+13:002009-01-24T09:49:00.000+13:00@Alison - thanks for the education! (reconsidered ...@Alison - thanks for the education! (reconsidered what I said earlier. ;))Tuihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11028316277815052897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-75802260309310237382009-01-24T09:47:00.000+13:002009-01-24T09:47:00.000+13:00This comment has been removed by the author.Tuihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11028316277815052897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-7487023248017137152009-01-24T09:38:00.000+13:002009-01-24T09:38:00.000+13:00I always squirm to see Margaret Sanger listed as a...I always squirm to see Margaret Sanger listed as a feminist - she was, for well-educated white women. Unfortunately, there's that whole messy eugenics thing that gets swept aside in our eagerness to see her as a feminist hero.<BR/><BR/>Well-educated white woman - choose whether you want to be a mother.<BR/>Poor, probably coloured woman - this is how Margaret Sanger saw you:<BR/> <BR/>"It is a vicious cycle; ignorance breeds poverty and poverty breeds ignorance. There is only one cure for both, and that is to stop breeding these things. Stop bringing to birth children whose inheritance cannot be one of health or intelligence. Stop bringing into the world children whose parents cannot provide for them. Herein lies the key of civilization. "<BR/><BR/>She made a huge difference in the lives of women, I understand that, but I don't really think it's ok to hold her up as a hero without considering her utter disregard for women who weren't like her. The benefits of her beliefs have been much wider-reaching than she ever intended, and possibly quite at odds with what she intended in some ways.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-16379771046946785002009-01-24T02:05:00.000+13:002009-01-24T02:05:00.000+13:00Holy crap, now THAT is sex-positive feminism. Lady...Holy crap, now THAT is sex-positive feminism. Lady is hardcore!Tuihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11028316277815052897noreply@blogger.com