tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post4377905241195893222..comments2023-10-07T22:37:49.244+13:00Comments on The Hand Mirror: Is this what feminists look like?katyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15742280289613450293noreply@blogger.comBlogger88125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-4386271814896975512011-04-05T03:05:27.619+12:002011-04-05T03:05:27.619+12:00Minor tangent here but regarding this:
"When...Minor tangent here but regarding this:<br /><br />"When I go to the Fatshionista livejournal community I don't think 'wow people my size.' I think 'Oh I could never do that. Oh I could never do that either. Oh I really couldn't do that.' It's one of teh many reasons why the label 'fat acceptance' fits uncomfortably with me."<br /><br />That is exactly how I feel when I look at fatshion posts, but to me fatshion is a very small part of fat acceptance. Maybe to people who are more interested it is a bigger part, but there are certainly other parts of equal or greater importance. Dressing fashionably is not important to me, having clothes more widely available in my size would be nice but I am getting on okay as it is (relative size and class privilege there), but getting health care and employment and social interaction without being hassled to hurt my body through dieting, and seeing portrayals of people my size and larger who are not disgusting buffoons, are very important to me. So I feel like FA should not be dismissed as a political movement based on the fashion choices of fatshion bloggers.meerkatnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-86979500046648076202011-02-20T21:21:42.556+13:002011-02-20T21:21:42.556+13:00THis is an excellent post as is your follow up exp...THis is an excellent post as is your follow up explanation. I enjoyed reading your examples of alienation by feminist groups and your very sensible suggestion about how this should be responded to.<br /><br />THanks.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15453199864736273622noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-89362532410341813802011-02-19T09:47:20.055+13:002011-02-19T09:47:20.055+13:00V - if you're being snarky as fuck you're ...V - if you're being snarky as fuck you're not just pointing out that "age is irrelevant to this discussion".Boganettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07253374355820020132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-56431654628131143942011-02-17T10:52:47.294+13:002011-02-17T10:52:47.294+13:00I have thought that age is just a number, it makes...I have thought that age is just a number, it makes me no better or worse than anybody else.<br /><br />I was a WRO on a right wing campus in 1999, I went to "womens training" for NZUSA and found it deeply difficult at times because the hugely vocal feminists there looked down on my feminism because I was married, ate meat, and a few other things..<br /><br />my feminism was not any less than theirs, it was shaped by events in my life and my views on them, it didnt make them or me wrong.<br /><br />Maybe the wyc admin did offend some there, maybe she didnt but is it our place to say that what she did was wrong when we are not members of said group....Azlemedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09817866704889651040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-24911839156594582422011-02-16T17:37:19.291+13:002011-02-16T17:37:19.291+13:00Nah probably not, I'm sure she's a horribl...<i>Nah probably not, I'm sure she's a horrible bitch who totally hates you and wants to take your feminist badge away from you. <b>Let's all just rip the shit out of each other.</b> </i><br /><br />Or we could point out that age is irrelevant to this discussion.<br />OH WAIT<br />I already did that.Scarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17840417225669820002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-21150635776490751512011-02-16T12:42:16.654+13:002011-02-16T12:42:16.654+13:00Seems to me like the WYFC hasn't been 'tak...Seems to me like the WYFC hasn't been 'taken over' by this discussion at all. It seems to have created discussion and brought a lot of people out in defence of what most people seem to think was a trivial. It also seems like the criticism around being aware of unduly alienating people was taken on board, but the conflicting ideologies of ‘relevance must be justified if they are posted in a feminist space’ seems to be rejected and they have the right to do that. <br /><br />It seems like most comments reflect the common sense nature of posting, and don’t feel like everything needs a justification. For instance, I noticed that the WYFC are (despite the comment from someone that they might have been taken over by all this) are posting away as normal on the page. One of the posts is a link to sites following the developments in Yemen and Algeria. Should the moderator have posted “This is not specifically a feminist post. It may not be relevant to every single member, some may be offended, some may not, some people might think this means we need to explicitly support or all become involved in middle eastern politics, this also may unduly alienate or offend members for personal reasons….so anyway here is this link.” No. They shouldn’t.<br /><br />I think the WYFC seems to have taken this discussion on board, and are getting on with it. There will always be discussions like these in feminism, and I hope the group continues to take what most people find helpful and constructive in their stride, and leave the rest behind.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-26801548394811193272011-02-16T11:31:49.560+13:002011-02-16T11:31:49.560+13:00"Oh great, the whole "I've been thin..."Oh great, the whole "I've been thinking about feminism longer than you" crap."<br /><br />- Do you think maybe it was just badly worded? And Tamara is trying to explain what she meant earlier?<br /><br />Nah probably not, I'm sure she's a horrible bitch who totally hates you and wants to take your feminist badge away from you. Let's all just rip the shit out of each other. That'll be way more fun than cutting each other some slack and finding some middle ground on this - and actually taking the best bits from both arguments and going from there. Because there is no way that some of Miaia's comments were actually fair and some of the comments from the WYFC were actually fair too. SOMEONE HAS TO BE WRONG. /snark.Boganettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07253374355820020132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-14892551440341343842011-02-16T11:18:00.943+13:002011-02-16T11:18:00.943+13:00Tried to leave a comment earlier but blogger keele...Tried to leave a comment earlier but blogger keeled over when I tried to login. <br /><br />Shorter, less polite, version: delurking to comment on how frustrating it is to see yet another feminist blog taken over by petty internal nitpicking and one-upping each other instead of focusing on the outward issues.<br /><br />*le sigh*<br /><br />And now I wait for the comments telling me I'm wrong beacuse that's what we do to each other on feminist blogs.<br /><br />*le freaking sigh*<br /><br />IonaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-25930039398820342282011-02-16T10:32:29.534+13:002011-02-16T10:32:29.534+13:00Sorry, OK I can see that it probably wasn't ne...Sorry, OK I can see that it probably wasn't necessary for me to say this but this was the impression I got. And anyway, it seems like some people are allowed to be pedantic but others aren't. By the way someone said something about ‘overly sensitive’ earlier, which is why I repeated that phrase. <br /><br />I just find this whole thing quite yuck because such a minor point being picked apart could put some people off engaging with feminism, which I am guessing is not what most feminists want. <br /><br />So back on topic - what exactly is the problem with ONE woman posting about a shop that sold clothes that worked for her body shape? It wasn't like she said this was for all women in the group. Don't we all have a right to talk about our bodies and what we want to do with them and dress them in? I know people have said this should be easy to understand, but I really still don't get why this post was such an issue.<br /><br />LAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-9477016288255850032011-02-16T10:32:17.037+13:002011-02-16T10:32:17.037+13:00Oh great, the whole "I've been thinking a...Oh great, the whole "I've been thinking about feminism longer than you" crap.<br />I experience more oppression and discrimination than you. Does that make me more 'feminist'? Does that counter your age elitism?<br />Or are both counts utterly irrelevant to this discussion?<br /><br />FYI, a valid argument is valid whether the person has been thinking about it for 5 minute or 15 years. Although if it took 15 years, some might say you're a little slow :-PScarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17840417225669820002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-32809909029251002402011-02-16T09:31:41.237+13:002011-02-16T09:31:41.237+13:00Listen, the 'older feminist' reference cam...Listen, the 'older feminist' reference came from me (I am 35 and frankly, do feel significantly older than women in their early 20s) and I'm sorry if I framed it as an adversarial position. But the Collective describe themselves as young, so therefore members are not likely to have been thinking about feminism as long as older feminists. That's all I meant. And of course there are things to be learned by all (rather than on both 'sides' as we're trying not to frame it that way). This has been a really interesting discussion.Tamaranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-20815876919189618802011-02-16T09:19:12.031+13:002011-02-16T09:19:12.031+13:00L, I really wish you would re-read your last comme...L, I really wish you would re-read your last comment and think about what Maia has actually said, as opposed to what you might be projecting onto her? For example, your contention that she thinks of herself as some kind of big-name feminist (I believe what she was actually referring to was her surprise when people don't connect her RL identity with her blogging identity and I consequently, by the way, don't think it's necessarily appropriate to bring up in this space); even if Maia did think this, what in the world is the relevance except to position this comment from the place of an attack on Maia's character? <br /><br />"Now, perhaps this is being too sensitive but to me this suggested that she was questioning the extent to which those posting could be considered ‘real’ feminists (like her)."<br /><br />Without using hot button words like "oversensitive", I think this is a dramatic misreading of Maia's post. But more than that, it's a misreading that Maia has gone to some lengths to apologise for and explicitly disclaim, in almost every comment she's made. I beg you to re-read some of the comments she's made in which she explains herself further, and also Alison's comments, since I don't think there's any point everyone continuing to repeat themselves.Tuihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11028316277815052897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-34269513886139341762011-02-16T09:18:04.026+13:002011-02-16T09:18:04.026+13:00V - I don't see discussion of Transphobia as e...<i>V - I don't see discussion of Transphobia as either whining or derailing to other feminist discussion. </i><br /><br />I guess this is because you've never tried airing transfeminine issues in feminist spaces. <br />Whenever I get 'shouty' and indignant about seemingly minor issues (like you have about the dress shop) - or indeed I get 'shouty' about anything - I get accused of acting in a masculine manner and exerting my supposed male privilege.<br />i.e. "What a <b>MALE</b> thing to say" or "What a <b>MALE</b> attitude/stance/delivery."<br />All of which really hurts in ways that I doubt you can imagine.<br /><br />I guess also that the still present perception of trans women as being less 'authentic' than cis women also causes problems whenever transfeminine issues are aired in feminist spaces (i.e. that our issues are less important because were a very small minority and that we're not REALLY women anyway).<br /><br />But what I was trying to get at here is that if I make <b>EVERY</b> issue into a trans issue (which I'm in danger of doing here) then people will quite simply get sick of me and stop listening when I talk - sort of a 'Girl who cried "Wolf"' scenario.<br />So I think it's important to pick and choose which issues we raise and try to focus on the ones that are the most relevant and the most important - instead of just dogpiling every little thing that comes up that you have a minor issue with.<br /><br />I think it's important to have some awareness of your audience and some gist of the social nuances and structures that you're dealing with; which I think you've clearly demonstrated that you don't have.<br /><br />Finally, in my experience, if you have sat on something for three days because you are conflicted about whether or not to post on it, <i>then you probably shouldn't post it!</i>Scarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17840417225669820002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-55175966285313431992011-02-16T09:15:30.606+13:002011-02-16T09:15:30.606+13:00"I can see from her posts that Maia considers..."I can see from her posts that Maia considers herself to be a 'big name' in the Wellington feminist scene" - See shit like this I just think is fucking rude. Address the post. Don't bring in bullshit baggage like that, don't project whatever fucking issues you have with individual people into this. If you think the post was patronising say why you think it was. Don't attack a woman who is clearly just trying to discuss feminism and what it means like everyone else on here. <br /><br />If your argument was actually fair you wouldn't need to resort to that crap.<br /><br />Can we not fucking talking about feminism and what it means to each and every one of us without pulling the 'I'm a real feminist/you're not a real feminist' bullshit?Boganettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07253374355820020132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-80356170739948771842011-02-16T09:01:07.040+13:002011-02-16T09:01:07.040+13:00Yeah, it has been rather bizarre to watch how quic...Yeah, it has been rather bizarre to watch how quickly people have totally misrepresented the discussion Maia was trying to have and how angry people have gotten at her for supposed 'derailing'. She seems to have been really positive and complementary about the Collective and what it is trying to achieve. <br /><br />However, as it is a collective, she has tried to instigate a discussion on the specific values that unite this collective of feminists and what aspects of discussion may be alienating (unintentionally)for some members. <br /><br />The response has been to accuse her of attacking cupcakes and generally being a nasty person for not saying 'YAY' to everything the comes from the collective. <br /><br />The facebook page does seem to be appealing to a 'type' of feminism that is more hip and fashionable. There is nothing wrong with that and I agree that some third wave feminists are calling out for feminism to be more accessible to them in this manner. But if you are going to use an ideological tag like feminism you have to be prepared to identify what this ideology is that unifies you (and also acknowledge what your differences are). You can't say, oh but this is just a social page so it doesn't matter about that nit-picky stuff that you are challenging us on. If you were just in it for a nice, easy, social time then the group should be called a stich and bitch or "The social collective". <br /><br />I think if people didn't feel like their project was being undermined and instead read the substance of what Maia has said they'd realise she wasn't being 'derailing' but instead instigating a valuable conversation for young and old (and those who are somewhere in between) feminists alike to have.<br /><br />YAY to all of you.<br /><br />MargoAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-28345245548221526062011-02-16T08:30:59.637+13:002011-02-16T08:30:59.637+13:00Personally, for me it wasn't the raising of is...Personally, for me it wasn't the raising of issues that was problematic, but the way in which this was approached.<br /><br />I can see from her posts that Maia considers herself to be a 'big name' in the Wellington feminist scene - there is a quote on Facebook somewhere saying she is always surprised when people don't know who she is. This sort of attitude can be kind of intimidating for people like me who don't get loud about things generally, but would like to get more involved in activism. So this may have influenced my perception a little as I didn’t know who she was, and I found it a bit arrogant that it would be expected that I should. <br /><br />Anyway, my own issue was not that the issue was brought up, but the way it was approached which came across to me as patronising and although essentially saying 'it's not that I want everyone to think the same as me', it seems in this discussion that this is the way things have gone, seeing as taking all of these issues off the table is what has been suggested. Also, the original post suggests that Maia also has a problem with other posts – one in every 20 posts made her want to have a discussion about what feminism means, I think was what she said but sorry If I am misquoting. She also so said she was excited about the collective but didn’t know how to orientate herself towards it. Now, perhaps this is being too sensitive but to me this suggested that she was questioning the extent to which those posting could be considered ‘real’ feminists (like her). Perhaps this isn’t what was meant, but this is how I felt about it and it seems from many other posts that I am not the only one. I’m not saying she should shut up about the things that upset her, but perhaps consider the potential impact of the way these issues are raised on the broader group. <br /><br />LAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-88997471841348659142011-02-16T07:52:56.666+13:002011-02-16T07:52:56.666+13:00I want to tautoko what Boganette said and add that...I want to tautoko what Boganette said and add that I think it's so important that we (=the Feminist Borg, obvi) respect people who speak out about things they find problematic. Even if me/you/we don't agree with Maia about this issue, a knee-jerk reaction of "I didn't mean it like that so your criticism is invalid and by the way, shut up, your divisiveness is hurting the movement!" is only going to put me/you/us in the habit of being less reflective when someone makes a criticism of my/your/our behaviour from, say ... an ableist standpoint. Maia began her post by describing the WYFC as an "awesome new project" about which she was "super excited" and added that every now and then she wanted to have a "massive city-wide discussion about what feminism means". Even if me/you/we might disagree with her in those discussions, it's not wrong to have them, it's not wrong to bring them up.<br /><br />We have to be able to talk to each other and listen to each other in this movement without accusations of derailing or ill intent. We're supposed to be about awareness of and critical thinking about structures of power, those are hard to talk about! But we have to!<br /><br />In other news, I just want to bake a cake made out of rainbows and smiles, I have so much respect for everyone on both sides of this discussion. :-/Tuihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11028316277815052897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-13690209562424074762011-02-16T07:24:42.208+13:002011-02-16T07:24:42.208+13:00Oh and by 'feminist position' I mean like ...Oh and by 'feminist position' I mean like coming from an outspoken self-identified feminist who has a history of talking about feminist issues and shit. If that makes sense. Which is probably doesn't.Boganettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07253374355820020132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-720980008639921302011-02-16T07:17:12.727+13:002011-02-16T07:17:12.727+13:00I think Maia's position is right and I think t...I think Maia's position is right and I think the WYFC position is right.<br /><br />Because they're both opinions - they can't be right or wrong when they're both coming from a feminist position.<br /><br />Aren't we meant to be rallying against the bullshit Hive Mind theory?<br />We can all disagree and still be on the same page.<br /><br />Also, if you're framing this as Old Feminist v Young Feminist or a ban on cupcakes you are being ridiculous. <br /><br />In terms of the reaction (mainly the last lot of people commenting) to this post - I started blogging BECAUSE of The Hand Mirror - Maia said that the WYFC post pissed her off for days. I'm stoked she took the time to write this up and take on the arguments against her post. Not shying away from controversy is something I like about The Hand Mirror. And I don't think anyone should be shot-down and have their arguments completely misrepresented simply because they didn't silently seethe about something that fucked them off.Boganettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07253374355820020132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-62248993387080169992011-02-16T01:29:17.144+13:002011-02-16T01:29:17.144+13:00I just want to make one final point. Yes I have p...I just want to make one final point. Yes I have presented this in an intellectual way - I've tried to explore and articulate the principle behind what I say. <br /><br />However, it's not just an abstract academic matter that I'm bringing up because I like abstract feminist discussions.<br /><br />When I say 'it's alienating' I mean "people have been alienated". I'm not just talking about hypothetical people, and I'm not just talking about me. When I said I sat on this for three days before writing on it. I meant that I thought of and discarded many different ways of bringing it up on my blog and on the feed itself. I really tussled about whether it was appropriate and what hte best way of doing it was. And when it was still bothering me after three days. And when I talked to other women who had read it and it was bothering them too, then I realised that I had to say something.<br /><br />I think it's fantastic that Alison has been able to articulate her points in a way that was possibly easier. I think it's great that some of the admins on the WYFC seem to have understood the point that a series of people have been making (and this is, as some people have suggested in some ways a continuation of a similar discussion about moon cups). And there have been some really cool ideas about better ways to present products on the feed. <br /><br />And I think it's great because I think the WYFC is a really great idea, and I'm really excited about it. Which is why I wanted to articulate what I thought was problematic. Even though at various points today I've got tired and snippy and been called an older feminist (although I also got mistaken for a first year today - so I guess it evens out).<br /><br />And I'm aware it's hard to have these discussions without alienating more people. And I know I'm not the best at it - that particularly in New Zealand feminist circles my whisper comes across as a shout (and spending times on American feminist blogs hasn't helped that tendancy). <br /><br />For those of you that think I should have kept quiet, who think I've been divisive and alienating, I guess all I'd ask is that you think about the way those concepts function within political movements, and the way they funcution against feminism.Maiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17212711843307060731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-22848161159807309392011-02-16T01:22:44.596+13:002011-02-16T01:22:44.596+13:00Angry Old Feminist - "There's pedantic an...Angry Old Feminist - "There's pedantic and then there is deciding to find ill-intent where it was clearly not meant."<br /><br />I have never said anything about ill-intent. I know that Coley didn't have ill-intent, and have said nothing that suggests otherwise. This is what I mean about constantly misrepresenting me. <br /><br />If you want to talk about what I say that's fine we can argue effect. But if you insist on talking about what you think I mean then you need to make sure that what you say has a vague relationship to the words I used.<br /><br />You keep bringing up that people disagree with me, as if this is a plebiscite. My feminist analysis is based on a combination of experience, reading, thought, and research. It's not up for a vote.<br /><br />You say that you don't understand why I care and why I brought this up. You'll just have to believe that it's the reason that I've given, because there is no other.Maiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17212711843307060731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-46479645300729496742011-02-16T00:53:58.191+13:002011-02-16T00:53:58.191+13:00Well, we do always have the option to take the &qu...Well, we do always have the option to take the "I didn't mean it like that and I'm not engaging" stance when a double standard is revealed. It's a shame you don't see the lack of value in attacking others on similarly ridiculous 'errors'.<br /><br />You STILL have not acknowledged that your posts have spurred a member leaving. I hope, for the sake of avoiding an irony-overload, that you don't attempt to answer that with "not everyone has to agree with me. I didn't mean to offend anyone." <br /><br />There's pedantic and then there is deciding to find ill-intent where it was clearly not meant. I wonder what your real problem is with this seemingly active, interesting group. <br /><br />You are quick to state that you were not involved in it's inception, and you don't consider yourself a member. I still fail to see any un-begrudging reason to spit this much disruption. <br /><br />Coley, Ally, Caitlin, Tania and others seem to have handled this very well, but I would guess they're probably over this giant derail by now and have better things to do with their time. <br /><br />You are right, criticism can be important, but there's criticism - like pointing out accidental exclusion (if you so choose to be overly pedantic. I agree with V's stance myself), and then there's deciding that your personal views and politics render anything that doesn't fit harmful and alienating, and deciding to push your agenda to the point of at least one person leaving a budding new group.<br /><br />It's pretty clear from the comments here that you're views are not shared by many, and you are clearly unwilling to agree to disagree with this. <br /><br />I think that if this group and the things they post really make you feel that "yucky", than perhaps this isn't the group for you and you should wish them well and leave them be. Not every feminist group is for every feminist. <br /><br />I wish them the best of luck, and I hope to see big things.Angry old feministnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-69868389210932318342011-02-16T00:28:32.586+13:002011-02-16T00:28:32.586+13:00Seriously Angry Old Feminist? Not even a sorry for...Seriously Angry Old Feminist? Not even a sorry for misrepresenting you? Just straight into another attack?<br /><br />If you claim you can't see the distinction between saying: "(I'm a bit of an obsessive knitter, as well as everything that those who read this blog would be familiar with)" in brackets in the comments and making something the subject of the post, then you're not trying to engage with what I said, but just play gotcha, a game I'm not interested in.<br /><br />I have refrained from making a post about knitting on this blog for years, for the very same reason that I objected to Coley's post. So I don't find that this criticism strikes particularly to home.Maiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17212711843307060731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-84834640821666246672011-02-16T00:20:03.695+13:002011-02-16T00:20:03.695+13:00I don't know about Steph, but I do feel disabi...I don't know about Steph, but I do feel disabilities are very serious. <br /><br />Knitting IS NOT accessible for everyone, and it's important to be aware of that. Especially if you're going to cut some group down for not appealing to everyone's needs and preferences in every single post they make and then be exclusionary yourself. <br /><br />What relevance does knitting have to feminism on a feminist blog anyway? What about people with arthritis? <br /><br />Aren't your points around relevance of fashion and craft (etc) to feminist discussion moot if you post about them yourself right here?<br /><br />Alternatively, you could resign yourself to the fact that nobody can please everyone, and that perhaps expression which is not willfully harmful in a feminist space is really important to some women. Perhaps the knowledge that most people won't mind hearing about knitting, because FFS it's KNITTING is a nice thought. And perhaps you could encourage those who are offended to take your expression in context and remember people can agree to disagree because it's not anyone's place to judge or attempt to derail just because it's not the right sort of expression for them. <br /><br />It seems to me there are serious holes in your arguments that have been questioned by people and have yet to be addressed - e.g. how can you appeal to everyone in a group that is attempting to be a collective, and what IS acceptable feminist conversation (because lord knows, other people should prescribe it*).<br /><br />I find it ironic you're so keen to ask people to focus on exactly what you said and not attempt to create any unspecified, unintended meaning from it, yet you are willfully interpreting:<br /><br />"Hey ladies, here is a shop I discovered in Berhampore today which is FANTASTIC. Lovely handmade, locally designed ladies clothes and jewelry. And they fit ladies with big boobs, which is rarer than it should be. Yay for awesome local businesses! x"<br /><br />As:<br /><br />"All women who belong to this Collective should shop here. If you don't you don't belong in this group. If you can't fit in these clothes I have decided you are not good enough and you shouldn't be in this group. I also think capitalism is fantastic and the fashion industry never hurts anyone."<br /><br />*You didn't say that EXACTLY, you just implied it explicitly and implicitly throughout this whole thread. Funny how people find meaning in things others may not have meant at all.Angry old feministnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-75740282561981017122011-02-15T23:45:55.099+13:002011-02-15T23:45:55.099+13:00Steph - Don't bring hypothetical disabled peop...Steph - Don't bring hypothetical disabled people into this as if disability issues are ridiculous. They're not.<br /><br />Angry Old Feminist - You are been responding to things I never said a lot. <br /><br />To quote what has been misquoted several times: "And I think the easiest way to avoid that is to make aesthetic/lifestyle/survival choices off the table for feminist discussion." <br /><br />I didn't say that they 'should' be off the table, or argue that they should be always be off the table. I explicitly said it was the easiest solution to a problem. To explore other solutions is not to back pedal from the claim that that is the easiest.<br /><br />It's a bit foolish to misrepresent someone so blatantly when what they actually said is right there in the post. I'm not going to continue to engage with someone who isn't interested in responding to what I actually said.Maiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17212711843307060731noreply@blogger.com