tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post4419242218715254202..comments2023-10-07T22:37:49.244+13:00Comments on The Hand Mirror: Sexual abuse and culturekatyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15742280289613450293noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-3865404071654544182013-05-11T11:29:51.371+12:002013-05-11T11:29:51.371+12:00Thanks xyz and Scorpio, and apologies for delays i...Thanks xyz and Scorpio, and apologies for delays in replying.<br />Scorpio the examples of offenders I gave were all men (though not all straight possibly, I'm not sure about the offenders identified in the investigations into the UK entertainment industry) but the examples of culture were not:<br />"I don't know why the British entertainment industry has been providing such a safe place to abuse for men for decades. But people working there will."<br />AND<br />"One teammate of the convicted rapists who saw the rape and walked away had just moments earlier stopped another teammate from drinking and driving. How do we shift those cultural norms, so that young sportsmen are just as determined to stop their teammates raping as driving drunk?"<br /><br />I guess we might just have to disagree here. I don't think my post reads the way you've read it. Maybe that's me expecting magic, maybe that's you making assumptions. Hopefully these comments make it clearer if it's confusing for anyone else.<br />LudditeJournohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13154447284268192467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-69534555999434711472013-05-09T21:29:23.900+12:002013-05-09T21:29:23.900+12:00Put another way, the voices of white het men and t...Put another way, the voices of white het men and the voices of offenders that are white het men...those are two different voices and the former is normally heard. Not the latter. <br /><br />xyz. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-64040457671795995022013-05-09T21:28:00.835+12:002013-05-09T21:28:00.835+12:00Umm the patriarchy prioritises the voices of norma...Umm the patriarchy prioritises the voices of normalised masculinity. Sex offenders, particularly against children, don't uphold that norm and therefore aren't the voices you normally hear. There's a strong argument to be made that their offending is based in the rigid notion of gender norms and how masculinity is enforced. That's very hard to explain without writing a novel, though. <br /><br />xyz.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-68507519108162270172013-05-09T18:51:07.304+12:002013-05-09T18:51:07.304+12:00Well LJ, I'm sure it's not what you meant ...Well LJ, I'm sure it's not what you meant to say. Often when we say one thing we end up accidentally saying another thing. I've done it too. But when I did it realised that intent wasn't magic and that sometimes readers could help me unpick the problematic aspects of what I'd written. Not that I'm blowing my own horn here.<br /><br />But the examples you gave were all white men. Then you talked about 'the analysis... needs to come from within the group of interest'.<br /><br />I'm having a hard time looking past that... it fairly leaps out of the page, for me.<br />Scorpiohttp://www.shakesville.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-30235777373634912822013-05-09T08:11:12.261+12:002013-05-09T08:11:12.261+12:00Hi Scorpio
I think our issue here is you think I&#...Hi Scorpio<br />I think our issue here is you think I'm saying:<br />"If all we needed to end abuse by white het men was for white het men's voices to be heard, the problem would have been solved long ago, because that is the voice that is always heard."<br />And I am emphatically not saying that. What I am saying is we need to understand and mobilise protective cultural norms within specific cultural contexts if we want to change rape culture(s). That doesn't mean we listen only to the relatively powerful in any culture. <br />Hopefully that is clearer, I still feel like this discussion is a little off base, but that may be because I'm written too short a post to communicate some complicated things.LudditeJournohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13154447284268192467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-70013421689913526532013-05-09T05:17:44.397+12:002013-05-09T05:17:44.397+12:00LJ, I am going to ask you to believe that I did no...LJ, I am going to ask you to believe that I did not come here to 'pick a fight' with you or anyone else. If I see something I disagree with, I say so. I'm not trying to bring you or anyone else down.<br /><br />Anyway, as for foregrounding the experiences of white het men, I think patriarchy already does that EXTREMELY well by itself. If all we needed to end abuse by white het men was for white het men's voices to be heard, the problem would have been solved long ago, because that is the voice that is always heard. That's what patriarchy is. The idea that the solution is to turn up the white het male volume even further, when it's already at 11, I just don't understand.<br /><br />If you'd said that we need to foreground the experiences of groups that re usually silenced (women, queer communities, Muslims etc etc) in dealing with abuse inside those communities, I would agree 100%. In fact I basically agree with your statement except when it comes to the group that benefits from patriarchy. But I feel that this exception is a very important one because this is the group that pereptrates most abuse. We can't really talk about 'solutions to abuse' generally without talking about white het male abuse.<br /><br />In fact you said it pretty well yourself not so long ago, LJ:<br /><br />'I have very little patience with people who want to undermine equity driven responses to women's oppression by insisting instead that we focus on men.'<br /><br />I can't see how, if we say that we need to listen to straight white men, we are doing anything other than just that.Scorpiohttp://www.shakesville.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-62555311114648349792013-05-08T22:18:13.164+12:002013-05-08T22:18:13.164+12:00Yes, Luddite is correct. Listening to white het me...Yes, Luddite is correct. Listening to white het men who perpetrate this abuse helps you understand why. That is increasingly what research focuses on. The victims are incidental to the offenders' motivations and the latter is what needs to change to reduce sexual offending by and large. <br /><br />Very excellent post. This issue gets ignored far too often. <br /><br />xyz. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-44115477931353555352013-05-08T16:26:52.942+12:002013-05-08T16:26:52.942+12:00I wonder if I've phrased this poorly Scorpio -...I wonder if I've phrased this poorly Scorpio - but it feels like you've picked a fight here I don't think I'm having. <br />If I want to stop sexual abuse in white communities, calling on manaakitanga say, will probably not work, because it will not be culturally meaningful. If I want to stop sexual violence in queer communities, I'll need to understand the complex dynamics at play around coming out and the vulnerabilities that has because otherwise I will misunderstand how that time is targeted by older queer predators. If I want to stop sexual violence in Pacifica communities, assuming I can do mixed gender work will be a barrier, even if that's good practise in other communities, because of strict cultural rules around gender and sexuality. But mobilising communal belonging and responsibility may well work.<br />The "group of interest" I'm talking about is not the same as "the person perpetrating the sexual violence" which seems to be how you've taken it. <br />And I completely disagree with you about the need to listen to straight white men about how to stop straight white men's violence - the problem, to my mind, is there are not enough men doing that work. It's of tremendous use - try doing some reading on current best practise in preventing sexual violence.LudditeJournohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13154447284268192467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-30768083645035925242013-05-08T15:22:07.531+12:002013-05-08T15:22:07.531+12:00"The most important issue, whenever we are ta..."The most important issue, whenever we are talking and thinking about culture, is that the analysis - and the shift to building and supporting protective social norms - needs to come from within the group of interest."<br /><br />I 100% disagree.<br /><br />When we are looking at sexual abuse that comes from a white male heterosexual culture, analysis from queer, coloured, female groups is extremely valuable.<br /><br />I have no interest in hearing a white het male dialogue about white het male child abuse. That would be of no use to anyone.Scorpiohttp://www.shakesville.comnoreply@blogger.com