tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post8285618324301500827..comments2023-10-07T22:37:49.244+13:00Comments on The Hand Mirror: creating divisionskatyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15742280289613450293noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-6780147881526193512012-06-14T21:42:57.596+12:002012-06-14T21:42:57.596+12:00@ wenis: what's pathetic is your childish foot...@ wenis: what's pathetic is your childish foot-stamping & petulance when asked to follow a couple of simple rules. there's no need for us to put up with that.<br /><br />and as for being afraid of economic arguments, i've yet to see you post one. all you seem interested in is petty insults, which are yawn-inducingly boring.stargazerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00430290445762377335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-12117707628430245612012-06-13T14:47:56.752+12:002012-06-13T14:47:56.752+12:00OMG, you deleted all my comments! Pathetic. Were y...OMG, you deleted all my comments! Pathetic. Were you worried that I was making you look economically illiterate?<br /><br />"class analysis" as you call it, isn't created by left-wingers. social strata are in fact created by the elite, to ensure they continue in their elite status and control who can move into the group and who can't."<br /><br />I call it "class analysis", because what you're propounding about "social strata is a theory". You've basically snuck the premise into your argument that social strata create by the elite <b> exist </b> in fact, when what you're actually putting forward is a theory, of which empirical proof is impossible.<br /><br />Actually, all these notions of elite groups further entrenching the power they hold reminds me of something else. It reminds me of those nutjobs who believe that the world is controlled by reptilian humanoids. You're not one of those, are you?! Coz you kind of sound like it. :pWenisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-17319183276716312652012-06-05T22:09:38.324+12:002012-06-05T22:09:38.324+12:00Interesting that this came at the same time that i...Interesting that this came at the same time that it was announced that all registered teachers will need to have a postgrad qualification now.katyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15742280289613450293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-53164000901837299562012-06-05T21:54:22.421+12:002012-06-05T21:54:22.421+12:00@stargazer - yes I completely agree. I should have...@stargazer - yes I completely agree. I should have worded it like that to begin with. <br /><br />@anon without a handle - a higher educated person is likely to earn more and people who earn more pay more tax. what part of that don't you understand? and all these other factors like "prospering business" do you think they just run themselves? people actually generate business. people actually generate the prosperity of society. and it helps an awful lot if those people are educated. <br /><br />me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-86349542489717698992012-06-05T21:03:05.933+12:002012-06-05T21:03:05.933+12:00well brett, if you want to stay ignorant that'...well brett, if you want to stay ignorant that's your business. but it's my business if you want to spread that ignorance here. if you'd bothered to listen to the protestors, you'll find they were sitting on the road only because of the actions of the police. had the police left them to carry on with their peaceful protest, as they have with so many other protests, then it would have been over well before peak traffic time. the police weren't wearing named badges, which against their rules. they created this confrontation, and did so in a way so as to avoid any accountability for their actions. and the state is supporting that.stargazerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00430290445762377335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-40394827423570052212012-06-05T18:21:12.274+12:002012-06-05T18:21:12.274+12:00Stargazer, I don't go to the standard anymore ...Stargazer, I don't go to the standard anymore because of the vile comments their posters wrote about 9/11 on the tenth anniversary of 9/11.<br /><br />I would just say, I support the Police removing anyone who is sitting in the middle of a main road (or any road) for that matter during peak hour traffic.<br /><br />If they (the students) expected to stay there and not be removed, then they are delusional.Brett Dalehttp://mediasportandotherrantings.blogspot.conoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-20052095387253747482012-06-05T13:59:33.380+12:002012-06-05T13:59:33.380+12:00anon, if you refuse to abide by our policy, then w...anon, if you refuse to abide by our policy, then we refuse to have your comments on this site. we don't need to justify our policy to you.stargazerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00430290445762377335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-54870496646858521782012-06-05T13:41:53.853+12:002012-06-05T13:41:53.853+12:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-73370782623168086732012-06-05T13:27:27.943+12:002012-06-05T13:27:27.943+12:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-81323158676289133082012-06-05T12:34:38.826+12:002012-06-05T12:34:38.826+12:00brett, unfortunately the law isn't on your sid...brett, unfortunately the law isn't on your side. i'd suggest you have a read through the comments on this post at the standard: http://thestandard.org.nz/police-fail-to-incite-riot/<br /><br />once you've read through it and educated yourself, you might realise that what you believe or support has no basis in law. this can also be proved by the fact that vast majority of those arrested were not charged.stargazerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00430290445762377335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-5460029060008472282012-06-05T12:04:18.932+12:002012-06-05T12:04:18.932+12:00People should have the right to protest on what ev...People should have the right to protest on what ever issue they want to.<br /><br />No one should be allowed to stop someone else from going about their daily business.<br /><br />The Police were removing people from a public road, if they werent causing traffic issues, then they wouldnt be removed.<br /><br />You stand in the middle of the road I support the police removing you.<br /><br />The police did nothing illegal here.<br /><br />In terms of paying for someone else's education, well a slong as they sign something stating, they wont go overseas once they got their degree and they wont charge the public an arm and a leg for their services, then fair enough.Brett Dalehttp://mediasportandotherrantings.blogspot.conoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-83896037095335094892012-06-04T23:42:31.292+12:002012-06-04T23:42:31.292+12:00anon, can you please use a handle as requested by ...anon, can you please use a handle as requested by our policy.<br /><br /><i>And the fact that people who are educated earn higher incomes is precisely the reason why the general populace ought not be forced to subsidise them!</i><br /><br />even though the taxes paid on those incomes help to provide social benefits to everyone. and i would have thought that tax takes depends on the tax rates in a country. the reason our country is floundering now is because of tax cuts that we couldn't afford.<br /><br /><i>I find it kind of hilarious watching these middle class, privileged kids rocking up to protests under the guise of promoting social justice. They really just want more beer money</i><br /><br />condescending much? i doubt those same students would feel much for you other than pity. and the point is that by cutting allowances, the children of the less well-off are locked out of higher education. they are fighting for the rights of others as well as themselves. you? are just exactly showing the kind of hate and division i talked about in my post. thanx for proving my point for me.stargazerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00430290445762377335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-33258763736957861902012-06-04T23:11:22.342+12:002012-06-04T23:11:22.342+12:00And the fact that people who are educated earn hig...And the fact that people who are educated earn higher incomes is precisely the reason why the general populace ought not be forced to subsidise them!<br /><br />Aside from the fact that you are wrongly characterising tax yield as an externality (here - I know you love education as much as I do; you might learn something: http://economics.about.com/cs/economicsglossary/g/externality.htm) you're also assuming assuming that there direct connection between tax take and how educated the populace are. That is patently wrong. Tax take depends on a country's GDP. In Soviet Russia, education was free for all - but the country eventually went bankrupt. Many people studied up to masters level and beyond. Obviously, this did not increase the resources available to the government. <br /><br /> Tax take depends on prospering business, productivity, efficiency gains and the state of the world economy (as this affects aggregate demand). <br /><br />I find it kind of hilarious watching these middle class, privileged kids rocking up to protests under the guise of promoting social justice. They really just want more beer money.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-35506397610435198592012-06-04T22:22:54.667+12:002012-06-04T22:22:54.667+12:00@ lucy: i had that first point you made in my hea...@ lucy: i had that first point you made in my head & forgot to put it down, so thanx for raising it.<br /><br />@call me clint: re your point about slavery, in order for you to prove that slavery is for the "greater good", you would have to a) exclude the well-being of the slaves themselves from your analysis and b)exclude any considerations of human rights & natural justice. and once you do that, you don't have much of a case at all.<br /><br />@ anon: i think "me" has dealt with your points quite well. "class analysis" as you call it, isn't created by left-wingers. social strata are in fact created by the elite, to ensure they continue in their elite status and control who can move into the group and who can't. and when you say "on the whole, the benefits flow back primarily to the individual", you fail to recognise the impact those indidviduals will have on society as a whole, and how society as a whole benefits from a whole heap of more educated individuals within it.<br /><br />@ me: the only thing i'd disagree with in your comments is that the aim of left-wing philosophy being to create a world where everyone is equal. i'd put it a bit differently, but maybe it's just splitting hairs. i'd say it's about a society where everyone has equal opportunity, regardless of who they were born to, and where we value things a lot more equally ie a lack of elitism.stargazerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00430290445762377335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-37565554675018044062012-06-04T20:53:07.982+12:002012-06-04T20:53:07.982+12:00Also "There may be some positive externalitie...Also "There may be some positive externalities to society, but on the whole, the benefits flow back primarily to the individual."<br /><br />WRONG. On the whole, well educated people earn more and therefore contribute to the tax intake more than their uneducated counterparts. It's a simple cost-benefit analysis; investing in education helps society advance (arguably more so than it helps the individual). <br /><br />me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-50631950335740043122012-06-04T20:50:53.877+12:002012-06-04T20:50:53.877+12:00"Right wing philolosophy is based on the cont..."Right wing philolosophy is based on the contention that everyone is equal under the law."<br /><br />Correct. And in contrast, left wing philosophy is based on acknowledging this ISN'T the case, and aims to help the structurally disadvantaged. The aim being, of course, the construction of a world where everyone is equal. <br /><br />The right wing just assume it's already like that (usually because they're blinded by their own privilege or bootstrap mentality) and create laws which fail to acknowledge the unequal reality of life for most people. <br /><br />Right wing philosophy acts in response to some ideal world, but it fails to understand that we don't live in real world. <br /><br />me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-76000498686347310132012-06-04T18:40:47.686+12:002012-06-04T18:40:47.686+12:00What a load of rubbish. Left wingers create dichot...What a load of rubbish. Left wingers create dichotomies far more that right wingers - class analysis is based on setting up various societal groups in opposition with one another. Right wing philolosophy is based on the contention that everyone is equal under the law and should be treated alike. <br /><br />Right wingers don't dislike education. They just don't believe others should have to pay for it. An education is an investment in yourself. There may be some positive externalities to society, but on the whole, the benefits flow back primarily to the individual. <br /><br />If you are going to attack right wing ideology, fine. But don't set up ridiculous straw man arguments in the process.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-11685545572296626872012-06-04T10:53:34.206+12:002012-06-04T10:53:34.206+12:00@ Clint- I think its pretty that the greater good ...@ Clint- I think its pretty that the greater good doesn't include slavery, there is no need to be so facetious in response to a well argued post.Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13756577987173700191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-5385337911710878502012-06-04T08:25:14.374+12:002012-06-04T08:25:14.374+12:00Call Me Clint
I'm a long time reader, first t...Call Me Clint<br /><br />I'm a long time reader, first time commenter. And you raise the point that true left wing thought requires a focus on the total utility generated (collectively) rather than whether an individual (or particular group) benefits/loses.<br /><br />The logical extension of that, however, is that a lot of the "niche" politics espoused on this website would be ignored. You'd focus on creating omelettes and a lot of LGBT etc. eggs might get broken.<br /><br />So be careful when you talk about "the greater good", because you then open yourselves up to policies that might seem unfair - hell, we could justify slavery if the loss of utility from a loss of freedom from the target group (say Chinese people) was less than the gain from the rest of the people who now have free home help.<br /><br />So, yes, collective good is good, but it's not everything.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-63029475384760157322012-06-04T01:18:01.896+12:002012-06-04T01:18:01.896+12:00I worked in McDonalds as a student. Working in McD...I worked in McDonalds as a student. Working in McDonalds and getting an allowance for postgraduate study are not mutually exclusive things, even a little bit. <br /><br />And I'd think it's the children of truck drivers and minimum-wage workers, as well as people in those jobs who want to continue or begin study, who benefit most from the availability of support for postgrad work - what's Joyce suggesting, that if your parents (or a good job you have yourself) can't pay for it, you don't deserve to do it?Lucyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06432218062519321962noreply@blogger.com