tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post8830918477925645733..comments2023-10-07T22:37:49.244+13:00Comments on The Hand Mirror: Slutwalk: Walk of Shame or McFeminism?katyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15742280289613450293noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-88760899450451468312011-07-16T08:50:07.675+12:002011-07-16T08:50:07.675+12:00"What I didn't see was any women wearing ..."What I didn't see was any women wearing religious garb, such as habits or hijab. That's something to work on for next time, either as an alternative gathering, or by developing a better narrative that is all about women being safe from sexual assault no matter they are wearing."<br /><br />As far as I recall there was a bit more diversity in this regard at the Auckland march (speakers and participants). However, the march finished up where the local Syrians have been gathering each weekend to protest the situation in Syria and that made me reflect on whether the gathering would have looked accessible to that group.katyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15742280289613450293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-62746560619785481222011-07-16T05:11:06.926+12:002011-07-16T05:11:06.926+12:00Stargazer, my comment was an attempt to explore ex...Stargazer, my comment was an attempt to explore exactly what the desires and motivations of Indian women are in the face of oppression. Too often western commentators make blanket statements about what women in the third world want without examining more deeply the social and cultural pressures that make their behaviour. SO maybe this is a case of that? I genuinely don't know. I wanted to start a discussion on that. Sorry if this is derail.Acid Queenhttp://www.shakesville.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-76295761106623021952011-07-15T17:42:02.340+12:002011-07-15T17:42:02.340+12:00Context makes such a big difference.
I'm in M...Context makes such a big difference.<br /><br />I'm in Melbourne and I supported and attended Slutwalk because I figured that the basic anti-victim-blaming message was a worthy one. The name makes me cringe, and the nonsense about taking back the word makes me roll my eyes, but hey, the cause was good. <br /><br />But it's not something I would participate in if it were held in Pakistan - at least not if it were presented as a 'we can wear what we want, so there' kind of thing. And that's not because I think you should, in principle, get shit for what you wear, but because, as Kamayani points out, there are way more basic issues out there that need to be addressed first. In Pakistan, as in India, this would be the kind of thing that my cohort - the educated, upper middle-class lot - would just lap up because it wouldn't really require much work. Turn up with a couple of banners, look pretty for photos and go home feeling like you've 'made a difference' and 'spoken out'. Meanwhile, you maid has to cover herself in layers of fabric before she'll brave the meagre public transport system where she and other women get assaulted so regularly it doesn't even make the news. <br /><br />In the West, despite the salacious coverage much of the mainstream media has given Slutwalk, I think it still managed to get through to some people. I think the fact that women and men attended in droves and that so many people told their stories and talked to each other and connected around victim blaming is awesome. And necessary. Because it is definitely one of the conversations our societies need to be having. Not the only one, by any means, but one. <br /><br />In South Asia, I think these conversations aren't directly relevant yet. Actually, having read what many bloggers of color have had to say, I think that it's not even a matter of east or west but of class and privilege. I have the privilege of being outraged at being called a slut because I live in a world from which I expect a modicum of respect. There are many many women out there, in every country, who do not live in that world.N.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-16879482770931102292011-07-15T10:37:56.523+12:002011-07-15T10:37:56.523+12:00It was unclear to me Khamayani, that you were spea...It was unclear to me Khamayani, that you were speaking specifically to the Delhi Slutwalk. (Thanks for clarifiying) Possibly because the author of the original piece hasn't confined her critique soley to the Delhi walk:<br /><br />"...SlutWalk is an annoying, antifeminist paradox. It is recreational hacktivism of the kind which topples over the very ideas that it is meant to uphold, by tearing down feminism (from Toronto to Delhi) and pandering to ignorant notions of patriarchy-friendly (!) ‘gender equity’. It packages serious issues that Indian feminism has been dealing with for years into a designer occasion that plays right into all the conventions and clichés that femininity worldwide is expected to conform to, challenging nothing and confirming chauvinist male attitudes by reassuring them that all the ‘sluts’ *giggle* really want is the licence to wear really tiny skirts and won’t they allow that pwetty please?..."<br /><br />This paragraph in particular shows the author critiquing the slut walk protests well beyond the borders of Delhi, hence my initial confusion to your comments.NZFemmehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00389856340365068007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-71506373059951481952011-07-15T09:59:53.050+12:002011-07-15T09:59:53.050+12:00@stargazer - you're absolutely correct - i cer...@stargazer - you're absolutely correct - i certainly have no right to be taking about the NZ marches, which occur in such a wildly different social context that it baffles me that i got the response i did.<br /><br />i was speaking so specifically about delhi that i am surprised now, then, that anybody got offended. they really don't have much information or right to be feeling outraged about the delhi slutwalk being called out on what it is.Kamayanihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08712293609249729750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-40411944402486159302011-07-15T07:18:47.435+12:002011-07-15T07:18:47.435+12:00In some ways it was a bit of a party here, in the ...In some ways it was a bit of a party here, in the sense that people were gathering and celebrating their strength and the opportunity to send a message. But on the march I was on, I saw young women and old, grandmothers and mothers and daughters, transwomen, many men marching in support, middle aged women like me dressed in very conservative clothes.<br /><br />What I didn't see was any women wearing religious garb, such as habits or hijab. That's something to work on for next time, either as an alternative gathering, or by developing a better narrative that is all about women being safe from sexual assault no matter they are wearing.<br /><br />As far as I can tell, the marches in places like Sydney and Melbourne were very like the marches in New Zealand, but I'd be reluctant to generalise past that.<br /><br />One thing I loved about the NZ marches is the grassroots activism that is inspiring a new upswelling of feminism. That's so positive. And it's not just words and politics: some of the new younger feminists are doing some fabulous work. For example, the Wellington Young Feminists Collective works hard in support of Rape Crisis. Fantastic.<br /><br />Long story short: as anjum says, there's a lot of cultural context in the marches.Deborahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14182573274494086468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-88253282969249650812011-07-14T22:47:48.139+12:002011-07-14T22:47:48.139+12:00kamayani, thanx for commenting here. i don't ...kamayani, thanx for commenting here. i don't believe that your comments are appropriate for the protests that happened in nz - they certainly weren't any kind of a party here, and many of the people who took part have been through some terrible experiences. if the atmosphere in delhi was something different, then your comment might be appropriate for that situation, but it certainly isn't fair to nz women and their allies who took part. i personally apologise to women here who are offended by that belittling, and i think kamayani that you probably don't have enough information of the marches in nz to make that kind of judgement.<br /><br />in the indian context, i can understand a fair amount of the frustration you feel in relation to the delhi protest being able to cause any change for indian women.<br /><br />AQ, i'm again failing to see how your contribution adds to the discussion. if they don't want to say so or think that's not a battle they want to take on just now, that's entirely up to them.<br /><br />i'm sorry to be late with this comment, but i've spent the day thinking about what i wanted to say, and it was important to me to get it right.stargazerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00430290445762377335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-83070522333383043842011-07-14T02:53:30.907+12:002011-07-14T02:53:30.907+12:00the majority of indian women aren't really int...<i> the majority of indian women aren't really interested in fighting the battle for "i can have sex with whom i want, and with how ever many partners i want; you don't get to judge me". </i><br /><br />Indian women don't want this, or they want it but just don't want to say so?Acid Queenhttp://www.shakesville.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-78010221307015869262011-07-14T01:45:10.057+12:002011-07-14T01:45:10.057+12:00*subjectIVE*subjectIVEKamayanihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08712293609249729750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-66262122379875432132011-07-14T01:35:42.248+12:002011-07-14T01:35:42.248+12:00Good to know that people are responding to this. I...Good to know that people are responding to this. I didn't mean to annoy anyone or belittle their participation in the Slut Walk or their concerns regarding gender violence in general. I am sympathetic to anyone who did wear what they were assaulted in and felt empowered by it, my intention was not to denigrate that feeling.<br /><br />However, the overarching subject contentment that defined this protest comes from a very limited pool of women who are in a much better place in society than most of the women facing the real perils and dangers of attack. At no point do I wish to imply that upper middle-class girls don't live in fear of being raped. I am an upper middle-class girl and live in fear of assault like many others. But my point is that what is fuelling this sort of protest is not enough. It's not igneous enough. It does not embrace as much. It falls short of the kind of movement we need to bring about lasting change and PRETENDING that this is that movement is what is really getting my goat.<br /><br />I'm sure this is not weekend entertainment for some of the people. But the fact remains that this is too much of a party for the majority of participants. And even if you don't agree with that, there's just no getting around the fact that this is ultimately deferential enough to patriarchy to take the sting out of its supposed rancour against "mankind" and whatnot. <br /><br />Sorry if I've offended anyone. I stand by everything I've written.Kamayanihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08712293609249729750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-61078618872417976552011-07-13T22:13:30.830+12:002011-07-13T22:13:30.830+12:00the best translation of "besharmi" would...the best translation of "besharmi" would be "immodest". but it has a stronger impact in than the english word, because of the cultural context of immodesty being such a terrible thing. so in that sense, i guess it does parallel the framing of slutwalk. the actual transalation of slut would be "randi", which would not have gone down well at all - again because of context & where the culture is at. so "besharmi" is definitely a compromise or a toning down of the framing.<br /><br />my sense is (as an outsider really, because i haven't visited for several years & haven't ever lived there since i was a toddler) that the majority of indian women aren't really interested in fighting the battle for "i can have sex with whom i want, and with how ever many partners i want; you don't get to judge me". they're more interested in wanting is to be safe from assault. which is possbily why they toned it down.<br /><br />to me, the point the author is making is that for the majority of women, the message they want to get across is "i just want to be able to go out when i want, without fear of being harassed, assaulted or raped" rather than "i should be able to wear what i like". this is where the cultural context & the privilege issues become more important.<br /><br />of course this is just one woman's perspective. unlike goodgravey, i haven't been following this closely on twitter or anything. so i don't know how much traction this is getting in delhi, or the rest of india.stargazerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00430290445762377335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-55800565937113563502011-07-13T18:43:28.885+12:002011-07-13T18:43:28.885+12:00There's lots of discussion in that piece about...There's lots of discussion in that piece about the term "slut" but was this even a key aspect of the Delhi march? It might have been inspired by the other international protests but thought that it was renamed/framed Besharmi Morcha ("shameless protest"). To ignorant me this sounds quite inclusive, would be interested to hear more about this.katyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15742280289613450293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-51424668124519473182011-07-12T21:46:40.967+12:002011-07-12T21:46:40.967+12:00Joanna - I told some of my friends about that - ab...Joanna - I told some of my friends about that - about how some women wore pyjamas, others business suits, because that was what they wore when they were raped. They were amazed.<br /><br />I in turn was amazed at their amazement. That people I know really think that rape is some isolated incident that only happens to certain people.<br /><br />I've been following the Delhi slutwalk debate on Twitter, particularly after following a blogger who goes by the handle Vidyut. I was intrigued by the cultural differences. And how the definition of besharma or besharmi seems to differ slightly from our "slut", but both are smeared with disgrace and "badness".<br /><br />I spent a fair amount of time reading every English-language tweet on the #slutwalk twitter feed (and used a translator on some of the Hindi posts). <br /><br />Vidyut was particularly strong on the point of reclaiming besharmi. That however the word is used, they will not be shamed because of any societal attitude as to how they should be.<br /><br />And there was a fair bit of talk about privilege - as there has here in New Zealand about it being a walk for the those privileged enough to be able to. However, what I witnessed on the walk - the number of people (men, women, intersex, heterosexual, LGBT) in tears, needing to be supported and hugged - at that moment there wasn't a whole lot of privilege going on.<br /><br />And yes - the HappyMeal comment is insulting even to me - at the height of privilege. But I think it was a post worthy of repeating.<br /><br />Good stuff stargazer.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-3895609857071708032011-07-12T19:10:05.519+12:002011-07-12T19:10:05.519+12:00Yeah, I agree, and can definitely understand the p...Yeah, I agree, and can definitely understand the points she makes regarding cultural translation to Delhi.<br /><br />I just saw that last remark about 'weekend entertainment' and went straw/camel.<br /><br />~TatsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-86108138424589575732011-07-12T19:00:08.590+12:002011-07-12T19:00:08.590+12:00ok, i have just a minute here, but the word i was ...ok, i have just a minute here, but the word i was thinking of was "framing". i think i would have been much more inclined to attend if the focus was around "the clothes you were raped/assaulted in", because that feels like something i can relate to. of course i realise that framing won't appeal to everyone, and doesn't deal with the actual issue of the original phrase used by the toronto police officer about dressing like sluts.<br /><br />tats, just one other point i wanted to make. i suspect that the writer is talking about privileged women in india rather than in the west. i think part of her frustration might be that these women are in a position to do a lot more around the injustices that writer speaks of, and this adopted western protest isn't really going to do anything for the vast majority of indian women.stargazerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00430290445762377335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-16133362332228195802011-07-12T15:51:14.009+12:002011-07-12T15:51:14.009+12:00Thanks stargazer. No, the post wasn't trigger...Thanks stargazer. No, the post wasn't triggering, I'm just getting annoyed at the criticism of SlutWalk becoming a form of erasure in itself. For some women, attending is a very personal decision that requires surmounting significant psychological barriers in order to make a point. <br /><br />To have that erased as the frippery of the privileged is frustrating and hurtful, because it dismisses the experiences of women who have been raped despite their privilege and for whom SlutWalk is not just a lark.<br /><br />~TatsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-74674724431749372512011-07-12T15:33:57.926+12:002011-07-12T15:33:57.926+12:00tats, yes, i agree with your last sentence. i thi...tats, yes, i agree with your last sentence. i think that's where i found the piece problematic. along with the title and the "anti-feminism". but i did think the other points were worth putting the post up. it's mostly the cultural translation of the event (and the inherent problems with that) which i thought were useful to raise. i'm sorry if this post was triggering as well.<br /><br />joanna, i'm sure they did. i guess it wasn't set-up that way though. actually "set-up" isn't the right word, but i have to rush off. i'll think about it some more.stargazerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00430290445762377335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-21413407796863548552011-07-12T15:23:40.292+12:002011-07-12T15:23:40.292+12:00What does SlutWalk do? Provide weekend entertainme...<i>What does SlutWalk do? Provide weekend entertainment for some advantaged young women like politics in a Happy Meal? </i><br /><br />I find this comment offensive. And I did attent SlutWalk wearing the clothes I was raped in. It was all kinds of triggering, especially explaining to a young man why I was wearing what I was wearing. <br /><br />It was not 'weekend entertainment' - it was an opportunity to publicise an issue that gets swept under the carpet or shouted down on a regular basis, in the company of others instead of the usual way, being the one person who says "Oi, enough with the victim blaming."<br /><br />I understand and agree with the points regarding the inherent privilege of SlutWalk, but can we please stop with the assumption that participants are all doing it for kicks and playing dressups?<br /><br />~TatsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-13756834278566935242011-07-12T15:23:08.149+12:002011-07-12T15:23:08.149+12:00Plenty of people wore the clothes that they were r...Plenty of people wore the clothes that they were raped in. There were a lot of people in pyjamas at the Wellington march.Joannahttp://hubris.co.nznoreply@blogger.com