tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post2251674923545714850..comments2023-10-07T22:37:49.244+13:00Comments on The Hand Mirror: pawnskatyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15742280289613450293noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-83121687758280320742009-10-23T21:42:31.962+13:002009-10-23T21:42:31.962+13:00Good question! I am so caught up that when I thin...Good question! I am so caught up that when I think about my ideal it usually involves thinking about the nice clothes I would buy if I had money, rather than imagining an alternative like the Star Trek, gender-neutral, unbranded option.katyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15742280289613450293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-38680482712413483232009-10-23T21:05:59.508+13:002009-10-23T21:05:59.508+13:00yeah, that's a difficult analogy because, in a...yeah, that's a difficult analogy because, in an environment where there is strong social pressure to remove hair, what do we think of the woman who doesn't? because that would be the situation of women who cover in many countries - in urban pakistan, for example. the women who choose to cover in these countries will often do it because of their own beliefs, or they may do it as a protest of the adoption of western values and resentment against the fact that these values have superceded local values through a process of colonisation or [what is seen as] cultural imperialism. for them it's a return to their own roots and a statement that they don't have to carry that trope of being the native savages who were "civilised" by a coloniser.<br /><br />i mean, there are so many things that may be going on in any particular woman's head, which is why i find a ban of the sort that al-azhar has implemented to be highly troubling. just as troubling as i find the enforced covering of the saudis. but really, i can't think of a country in this world where women are free to just be. by that i mean an enviornment without any cultural and social pressures around ideal womanhood, where choices are truly free. in such an environment, i wonder what we would choose.stargazerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00430290445762377335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-21473866585984002352009-10-23T17:26:42.410+13:002009-10-23T17:26:42.410+13:00"in some cases there may be external pressure..."in some cases there may be external pressures, but in many other cases there isn't. in egypt, i'd say the pressure is to not cover, and the women who do so may have many reasons of their own. "<br /><br />That is an interesting comment, about the different sources of pressure. I wonder if the sources of the pressure are qualitatively different somehow? Because this seems to be a basic assumption for some of us "westerners". Perhaps many people who aren't familiar with the way religious institutions work assume that they are somehow less benign than those of the state. <br /><br />Please forgive my awful analogy but it reminds me of the decision that women in some western societies make regarding what to do about their body hair or other aspects of their appearance; in the industry I work in women are expected to take a lot of care with their appearance, to wear make-up etc and to turn up at a meeting with hairy legs would be a revolutionary act, whereas in previous lives the pressure has been very strong in the other direction, to eschew all that or else be seen as frivolous.katyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15742280289613450293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-11133502736977989102009-10-22T22:54:20.657+13:002009-10-22T22:54:20.657+13:00sorry, but that's a blanket statement i can...sorry, but that's a blanket statement i can't agree with. in some cases there may be external pressures, but in many other cases there isn't. in egypt, i'd say the pressure is to not cover, and the women who do so may have many reasons of their own. the "religious hardline" may actually be a result of their own deliberations and an informed decision on their part.<br /><br />i've never heard of susan moller okin, but i do know that i'm a little tired of western feminists thinking they know best. i hope she's not one of those. will try to get to the link over the weekend.stargazerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00430290445762377335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-28469988299758704282009-10-22T20:03:30.999+13:002009-10-22T20:03:30.999+13:00This is a difficult issue, but unfortunately I don...This is a difficult issue, but unfortunately I don't think social justice is the whole answer - the initial pressure on women to wear and not wear particular forms of dress comes from the religious hard-liners, not the government. Susan Moller Okin's landmark essay on feminism and multiculturalism at http://www.bostonreview.net/BR22.5/okin.html is a really good place to start thinking about these issues.AnneEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00869114756713316204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-56523636401037820792009-10-20T20:53:36.733+13:002009-10-20T20:53:36.733+13:00stargazer, the article I referred to talks about a...stargazer, the article I referred to talks about a girls school in Antwerp which allowed students to wear headscarves (one of very few to do so). This resulted in more conservative families sending their daughters to the school and as a result (it is said) girls in the school felt more pressure to move to wearing even more concealing dress. In the end the school placed a ban on headscarves which had a number of negative consequences also. However, from what you say, it seems like there wouldn't be the same situation in the Egyptian university of families seeking to out-devout each other via their daughters (if this is what was happening in Antwerp).katyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15742280289613450293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-14826806873839008382009-10-20T09:26:57.518+13:002009-10-20T09:26:57.518+13:00no, but teachers (and i think students as well) ar...no, but teachers (and i think students as well) are not allowed to wear niqab (face covering) at school. my understanding is that niqab is also not allowed in government workplaces.stargazerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00430290445762377335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-48810368217677030732009-10-20T01:49:01.020+13:002009-10-20T01:49:01.020+13:00don't think Oman has banned head scarves in sc...don't think Oman has banned head scarves in schools.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-4439411310824575882009-10-19T22:55:30.543+13:002009-10-19T22:55:30.543+13:00haven't had time to read the article katy. bu...haven't had time to read the article katy. but the cultural environment in egypt has been similar to that in turkey: there has been strong discouragement to cover the hair, forget about covering the face. so i'm thinking most of these women don't really need any kind of 'alibi'. there may be some who do, but i can't imagine it would be that many.stargazerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00430290445762377335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-36266776657837843812009-10-19T20:51:11.120+13:002009-10-19T20:51:11.120+13:00hey stargazer, did you read this column in the Eco...hey stargazer, did you read this column in the Economist a few weeks ago? http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displayStory.cfm?story_id=14447929<br /><br />When I heard about the law change in Egypt I wondered if the explanations were the same, that is, to provide something of an 'alibi' to those women who don't want to wear traditional dress.katyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15742280289613450293noreply@blogger.com