tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post3183493662268412371..comments2023-10-07T22:37:49.244+13:00Comments on The Hand Mirror: Tricky balancing act aheadkatyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15742280289613450293noreply@blogger.comBlogger83125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-64743728076481143142010-10-16T11:27:07.628+13:002010-10-16T11:27:07.628+13:00Why Does Feminism forgive Sexism when it's cul...Why Does Feminism forgive Sexism when it's cultural? <br /><br />IMHO it's still wrong.Brett Dalehttp://mediasportandotherrantings.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-1381168836316664752010-10-16T00:26:30.136+13:002010-10-16T00:26:30.136+13:00personally, I think it's totally fine to ask p...personally, I think it's totally fine to ask pregnant or menstruating women to stay away from the taonga at this exhibit.<br />it took a little bit of thought but then I realised it goes hand in hand with my own belief on the physical changes women experience. imho, women are tapu in every sense when we bleed or are pregnant. <br /><br /><br />cjmax02Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-79034574303815800222010-10-15T21:28:28.091+13:002010-10-15T21:28:28.091+13:00Just because some something is culture or religion...Just because some something is culture or religion doesnt make it right.<br /><br />If its sexist, its sexist.Brett Dalehttp://mediasportandotherrantings.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-26186570446075266642010-10-15T16:39:03.396+13:002010-10-15T16:39:03.396+13:00"And if you think it's easy to just not g..."And if you think it's easy to just not go on the tour: everyone you work with will know why you're not on it. It's because you're either menstruating (which women shouldn't have to tell their co-workers if they don't want to) or pregnant (which again they shouldn't have to share with their co-workers if they don't want to, particularly if it's a high-risk pregnancy). "<br /><br />Something that this situation has made me reflect on is the situation for women I might work with who have been raised with certain beliefs around menstruation and pregnancy and how they must often find themselves in situations in the NZ workplace where they are required to undertake work that they are not comfortable with on this basis. Presumably most NZ employers wouldn't be happy to hear from a staff member working in a kitchen, for example, who asked to be able to undertake different duties while she had her period. I recently saw first-hand a Muslim woman get a hard time from her colleagues when she asked to be excused from something because she would be fasting (it was during Ramadan). I have no doubt that the response would have been even stronger if someone had asked to be excused from certain tasks on the grounds that they were menstruating.katyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15742280289613450293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-71332462989940060712010-10-15T16:38:29.313+13:002010-10-15T16:38:29.313+13:00Teenaa koe, Fiona
Gosh, when you put it like that...Teenaa koe, Fiona<br /><br />Gosh, when you put it like that how can I not respond. <br /><br />I’ve have been called many things – hot, sexy and smart, to name but a few. Victim is definitely not me. However, there are many within my worldview that are victimised by white women oppression as much as by men. <br /><br />Your worldview is closed down and tightly bound – not even light can slither through. “My rights are paramount! This exhibition cannot proceed because it infringes on my rights to bleed incognito and not to believe!”<br /><br />I am thinking about another thread seeking to save women’s studies at Victoria – why bother! It appears that women's studies has done little to bridge the divide between Mana Waahine and Feminism.<br /> <br />Teenaa koe, Marino<br /><br />Ka mau te wehi!Adelenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-70478971728285987962010-10-15T16:31:43.191+13:002010-10-15T16:31:43.191+13:00Kia ora, marino, Adele
If you are interested, I&#...Kia ora, marino, Adele<br /><br />If you are interested, I've put up quite a long post about these issues at my own place.<br /><br /><a href="http://inastrangeland.wordpress.com/2010/10/15/the-difference-between-being-required-to-believe-and-respecting-belief/" rel="nofollow">The difference between being required to believe and respecting belief</a><br /><br />I don't feel that I can post it here on The Hand Mirror, because I'm not confident that the other people who blog here would be comfortable with it. It's highly theoretical, which reflects my training.<br /><br />Thank you for what you have been writing here. I've been following it all, and listening in on some other threads around the place, particularly where Maori women and men are writing. I appreciate the time you have taken to write about the issues here.Deborahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14182573274494086468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-33695818870443701562010-10-15T11:34:59.484+13:002010-10-15T11:34:59.484+13:00Aue. I had intended to read all the posts after mi...Aue. I had intended to read all the posts after mine but there were far too many. Perhaps it would be better to share a few loose thoughts on the ones I was able to get through.<br /><br />I feel the debate has come to centre on issues that its not actually about which is understandable given the lack of education in this area. So for the record lets go through this again.<br /><br />Menstruating women are not considered "dirty", they are considered "tapu". How anyone could translate tapu as dirty is beyond me. Tapu basically connotes something that is sacred and because of this it must be kept apart from certain things in order to preserve that state of sacredness. As astutely observed by one commentator there are many different situations that give rise to tapu such as dealing with the dead or even entering onto a marae for the first time but the phillosphy requiring the separation of tapu things is common to all. And before you ask theyre not all women related.<br /><br />When something or someone is in a state of being tapu, it is, as another person pointed out, spiritually unsafe for the tapu of that person to be violated or disturbed by something harmful. In this case the objects on display carry may well their own tapu but it is of a completely different nature to that the women carry. As Julie rightly guessed, bringing these two "opposing" factors together could be detrimental. <br /><br />I agree with whoever said this is a spiritual matter, but its also a cultural one and one of respect. These are the beliefs of the caretakers of these taonga and if they are not respected then I believe the iwi have every right to ask for their taonga back. It would be the same irrespective of which culture the artefacts belonged to, even some undiscovered tribe who believed in excluding large sectors of the public as hypothesised by another commentator.<br /><br />Finally to all the feminists out there that may be reading this, do not judge my culture by the snippets of tikanga you watched on Whalerider or the 3 second soundbites that some ignorant journalist deems worthy to air. We are not a mysoginistic culture, in fact we only learnt about placing men above women when white people came and taught us how to. <br /><br />At the essence of our belief system is the concept of balance. Men AND women, tapu AND noa, theres a place and a time for everything. Just because you may not understand why we do things the way we do, dont assume its for the same reasons your people do it or because we're a bunch of loopy natives. Maori women are every bit as important and valued in our society as men and its a crying shame that more people, including our own dont take the time to learn about their roots and the real nature of how our society has always worked with the sexes in partnership and collaboration. The need to treat different people differently at times doesnt always mean youre discriminating.marinonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-20393826375328685302010-10-15T11:34:24.472+13:002010-10-15T11:34:24.472+13:00Aue. I had intended to read all the posts after mi...Aue. I had intended to read all the posts after mine but there were far too many. Perhaps it would be better to share a few loose thoughts on the ones I was able to get through.<br /><br />I feel the debate has come to centre on issues that its not actually about which is understandable given the lack of education in this area. So for the record lets go through this again.<br /><br />Menstruating women are not considered "dirty", they are considered "tapu". How anyone could translate tapu as dirty is beyond me. Tapu basically connotes something that is sacred and because of this it must be kept apart from certain things in order to preserve that state of sacredness. As astutely observed by one commentator there are many different situations that give rise to tapu such as dealing with the dead or even entering onto a marae for the first time but the phillosphy requiring the separation of tapu things is common to all. And before you ask theyre not all women related.<br /><br />When something or someone is in a state of being tapu, it is, as another person pointed out, spiritually unsafe for the tapu of that person to be violated or disturbed by something harmful. In this case the objects on display carry may well their own tapu but it is of a completely different nature to that the women carry. As Julie rightly guessed, bringing these two "opposing" factors together could be detrimental. <br /><br />I agree with whoever said this is a spiritual matter, but its also a cultural one and one of respect. These are the beliefs of the caretakers of these taonga and if they are not respected then I believe the iwi have every right to ask for their taonga back. It would be the same irrespective of which culture the artefacts belonged to, even some undiscovered tribe who believed in excluding large sectors of the public as hypothesised by another commentator.<br /><br />Finally to all the feminists out there that may be reading this, do not judge my culture by the snippets of tikanga you watched on Whalerider or the 3 second soundbites that some ignorant journalist deems worthy to air. We are not a mysoginistic culture, in fact we only learnt about placing men above women when white people came and taught us how to. <br /><br />At the essence of our belief system is the concept of balance. Men AND women, tapu AND noa, theres a place and a time for everything. Just because you may not understand why we do things the way we do, dont assume its for the same reasons your people do it or because we're a bunch of loopy natives. Maori women are every bit as important and valued in our society as men and its a crying shame that more people, including our own dont take the time to learn about their roots and the real nature of how our society has always worked with the sexes in partnership and collaboration. The need to treat different people differently at times doesnt always mean youre discriminating.marinonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-26807404713706363642010-10-15T11:32:19.526+13:002010-10-15T11:32:19.526+13:00I think it's so sad that you just write off an...I think it's so sad that you just write off anyone who doesn't agree with you as "white women" and refuse to engage with them. In terms of playing the victim: you've more than got that covered.Fionanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-73938769621308812272010-10-15T11:28:13.042+13:002010-10-15T11:28:13.042+13:00i just wanted to mihi to your strength and courage...<i>i just wanted to mihi to your strength and courage in being that lone maaori amongst the barbarians</i><br /><br />Quoted for humour.DPF:TLDRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06372937855256319716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-74810545362158693302010-10-15T10:56:20.399+13:002010-10-15T10:56:20.399+13:00Teenaa koe, Fiona
Who gets to win this debate – t...Teenaa koe, Fiona<br /><br />Who gets to win this debate – the majority opinion perhaps? This woman obviously knew that by going to the media she would generate a fierce amount of heat and anti-Maaori rhetoric. White women are so good at playing victim when it suits but it seems that it took only one email to create a societal storm – that is not victimhood, it reads as a perpetrator in sheepish clothing.<br /><br />I won't be commenting further until later in the evening and that is respond to Deborah only. This blogosphere is intruding on my real-time space.Adelenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-62641780298091181232010-10-15T09:52:25.496+13:002010-10-15T09:52:25.496+13:00It's a shame that people seem to be forgetting...It's a shame that people seem to be forgetting that this email was leaked to the press. Someone invited to the tour was deeply upset by being told they were not welcome. So upset that they went to the media. We should consider that. Labelling any woman upset by Te Papa's stance as "uneducated" and culturally insensitive is quite offensive. And if you think it's easy to just not go on the tour: everyone you work with will know why you're not on it. It's because you're either menstruating (which women shouldn't have to tell their co-workers if they don't want to) or pregnant (which again they shouldn't have to share with their co-workers if they don't want to, particularly if it's a high-risk pregnancy). And if you do go while menstruating or pregnant you're some kind of culturally insensitive person who has no respect for Maori. Women can't win with this one. But instead of talking about it dialogue is just shut down: You don't know what tapu is you're just an uneducated white woman etc. You're a racist who hates Maori if you dare say you find the "advisory" offensive and hurtful.Fionanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-69156021013297373612010-10-15T09:11:20.195+13:002010-10-15T09:11:20.195+13:00Teenaa koe, Milt
A useful analogy, that. As in: o...Teenaa koe, Milt<br /><br /><i>A useful analogy, that. As in: only a few right-wing nutbars would object to Te Papa acknowledging the reality of the experience to the voice-hearer. A lot of people however, would object to Te Papa telling those who aren't hearing any voices that they have a responsibility to act as though they are</i>.<br /><br />Firstly, labelling nutbars as right-wing is being unkind to nutbars.<br /><br />Secondly, an even more useful analogy is to quote the entire paragraph and then relate it to what might constitute a fair and tolerant society. Perhaps a society that validates the worldview of others; seeks then to understand the worldview of others – such that they become normalised into the greater consciousness, and then actively works towards reducing the stigmatisation of others - as a process of being truly inclusive, and therefore healthier. The actions of Te Papa would then become a non-event in these circumstances.Adelenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-36062252080379678832010-10-15T06:37:11.074+13:002010-10-15T06:37:11.074+13:00In defining treatment modalities emphasis was plac...<i>In defining treatment modalities emphasis was placed on acknowledging the reality of the experience to the voice-hearer as a core principle. </i><br /><br />A useful analogy, that. As in: only a few right-wing nutbars would object to Te Papa acknowledging the reality of the experience to the voice-hearer. A lot of people however, would object to Te Papa telling those who aren't hearing any voices that they have a responsibility to act as though they are.Psycho Milthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00779500926576047736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-33098232764611315112010-10-15T01:41:29.605+13:002010-10-15T01:41:29.605+13:00Teenaa koe, Madeleine
In 2003, Auckland Universit...Teenaa koe, Madeleine<br /><br />In 2003, Auckland University investigated the phenomenon of hearing voices experienced by the general population of Aotearoa. The idea flowed from international research which suggested that it is a relatively common experience within the general population (5 -10%). The participants offered various explanations to their experiences of hearing voices which were subsequently categorised into three themes – biological, psychological, spiritual.<br /><br />Downstream, further analysis was made in terms of the evaluating the overall experience of hearing voices as either a valued blessing or unwanted curse. Generally those participants that believed their experiences of hearing voices to be a blessing were less likely to view their voices as their own thoughts, and were less likely to have contact with mental health services.<br /><br />In defining treatment modalities emphasis was placed on acknowledging <i> the reality of the experience to the voice-hearer</i> as a core principle. In concluding, participants called for more information and the normalisation of the experience to reduce stigma particularly with regard to its <i>perceived </i>associations with severe mental illness. <br /><br />Through the quantum world I was trying to convey the concept of a rational world overflowing with irrational concepts. A reason to view existence as having greater possibilities than what is currently perceived.Adelenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-2552637856690554802010-10-14T23:31:04.107+13:002010-10-14T23:31:04.107+13:00Arohamai Adele, i should've emphasised used to...Arohamai Adele, i should've emphasised <b>used to</b> as in i no longer waste much of my time in blogland trying to conscientize white folk about maaori experiences of colonisation - like i said that shit got tired real quick. <br /><br />Mostly i only bother having korero like this with non-maaori who are inescapably part of my real life - like say my mum, or my neighbours. <br /><br />i think white power and privilege is so invisible to white people that it takes long term commitment, some solid as whakawhaanun'atan'a and lots of kanohi kitea to achieve anything like positive change - none of which blogland can offer.<br /><br />i imagine its much the same for me n my patriarchal blindspots - while digital forums have given me some good (and bad) ideas, its only ever been through the relationships i have in real life with wahine toa and conscious taane that change comes.<br /><br />Anyways, i just wanted to mihi to your strength and courage in being that lone maaori amongst the barbarians. Your mana and dignity are shining through my whaanaun'a!<br /><br />n'a mihi<br />Mkura<br /><br />PS while this has been a hoha as kaupapa, for me all the korero between maaoris - on facebook, in the kaauta today at work - has been beautiful az to witness and participate in.Mkuranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-38158012407197731452010-10-14T21:28:36.102+13:002010-10-14T21:28:36.102+13:00Teenaa koe, Mkura
Ko Puutauaki, ko Tarawera ngaa ...Teenaa koe, Mkura<br /><br /><i>Ko Puutauaki, ko Tarawera ngaa maunga.<br />Ko te moana nui a Toi ki te huatahi.<br />Ko Tarawera te awa, te Awa a te Atua.<br />Ko Maataatua, ko Te Arawa ngaa waka.<br />Ko Tuuhourangi, ko Ngaati Rangitihi, ko Ngaa Maihi, ko Tuuwharetoa ki Kawerau ngaa hapuu.<br />Ko Rangitihi, ko Tuteao ngaa marae<br />Ko Adele tooku ingoa</i><br /><br />Arohamai, please forgive my tardy behaviour in not responding to you sooner. I have been searching for the correct words to say and unfortunately the English language has left me bereft. I too am Tuuhoe through both parents, and my Mum is Ngaa Maihi from Te Teko. <br /><br />I don’t often contribute to the blogosphere unless my blood boils – I was a veritable blood pudding on this issue. I am in awe of your tenacity in keeping the fires burning on behalf of Te Ao Maaori, in this virtual place. What a challenge! <br /><br />But I think you are correct in confronting this task - as the space between worldviews is vast, and unnaturally empty. I will contribute to your flame as much as I can henceforth.Adelenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-26169199186572416452010-10-14T19:59:39.264+13:002010-10-14T19:59:39.264+13:00"I say this as someone who from time to time ..."I say this as someone who from time to time hears an entire symphony orchestra playing in my head. "<br /><br />Totally not a problem if you acknowledge that your brain was creating the "symphony orchestra"; only a problem if you ascribe its source to something external. <br /><br />"I won't deny We also have a Maaori view of psychology. Hearing voices is not automatically labelled psychosis - as perhaps those voices do exist."<br /><br />Exist? In someone's mind, perhaps. I can have lots of things exist there - conversations, fantasies, dreams where I can fly etc - but they are the creations of my mind, and I know it. <br /><br />Though you're onto something with the quantum stuff - maybe some entangled particles have been messing with my brain processes. <br /><br />"The western scientific method is also not without flaw as it assumes an objective stance from an inherently subjective perception - defined by culture, education, politics, commercialism, funding, worldview, etc."<br /><br />Possibly - this is why science involves other people (with different cultures, education, politics, commercialism, funding and worldview, excepting their adherence to protocols surrounding making unbiased measurements and honestly recording/reporting data) replicating studies to verify results. The full process tries as much as possible to remove observer effects. <br /><br />- MadeleineAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-55202984783718912082010-10-14T17:45:18.669+13:002010-10-14T17:45:18.669+13:00"I wonder how a Maori tour group would feel i..."I wonder how a Maori tour group would feel if told that while in a museum viewing British Colonial Artifacts, stepping on pavement cracks or walking under ladders might cause something bad to happen, that menstruating women must not touch any cows (or milk vessels) in the vicinity lest the milk sour and that those who have had a black cat cross their path should stay outside?!"<br /><br />Learning about local beliefs when visiting a museum exhibition seems absolutely appropriate and something that would enhance the experience! And we have now established that no-one was actually saying that anyone should not visit Te Papa and see these exhibits, it was an FYI which some people would have appreciated.<br /><br />There are certain ways of behaving in Pakeha museums which are not universal such as lowering our voices, not touching the exhibits, not standing too close, dressing tidily etc etc. If I was bringing a group of Chinese teenagers to the Auckland Museum, for example, I would explain these customs and I would be happy to hear from those in other places how they treat their treasures.<br /><br />(And it is mortifying when you break the rules and offend people through ignorance, as I found when I went into a Russian Orthodox church once with my hair uncovered and wearing trousers which very much embarrassed my Russian companion).katyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15742280289613450293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-10039287214192858072010-10-14T17:03:05.924+13:002010-10-14T17:03:05.924+13:00Teenaa koe, Lucy
Not at all, the disagreement I a...Teenaa koe, Lucy<br /><br />Not at all, the disagreement I am hearing is based in ignorance because there appears to be no understanding in respect to even the rudiments of Te Ao Maaori. <br /><br />I am able to discuss the Western tradition because I have taken the time and committed the energy to its study.<br /><br />There is a mana wahine on this site whose views are polar opposing to mine. I absolutely respect her point of view however because it comes from a position of strength - she knows what she is talking about. <br /><br />Dare I say it, in all likelihood she probably could kick my metaphorical arse into the next realm in discussing the nuances of our closely related worldviews.Adelenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-25815967088417522662010-10-14T16:29:25.932+13:002010-10-14T16:29:25.932+13:00Adele
While I wouldn't go so far as Lucy I do...Adele<br /><br />While I wouldn't go so far as Lucy I do get the impression that there are certain criticisms of Te Ao Maori which you feel could only be made by somebody who is ignorant, and furthermore that criticisms of what's happening at Te Papa are among such criticisms. Fair?DPF:TLDRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06372937855256319716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-78922668571230714132010-10-14T02:59:27.633+13:002010-10-14T02:59:27.633+13:00Certainly criticise Te Ao Maaori, however, do so f...<i>Certainly criticise Te Ao Maaori, however, do so from a position of strength found in knowledge, and not from ignorance.</i><br /><br />I think one of the issues at stake here, Adele, is that for the term of this discussion you seem to have defined "not agreeing with me (especially while being Pakeha)" as "ignorance".Lucyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06432218062519321962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-7544294102278577862010-10-14T00:29:44.201+13:002010-10-14T00:29:44.201+13:00We also have a Maaori view of psychology. Hearing ...<em>We also have a Maaori view of psychology. Hearing voices is not automatically labelled psychosis - as perhaps those voices do exist. </em><br /><br />There's some interesting research that I came across recently which said that many people hear voices, but not everyone regards it as a problem. It seems to take voices plus something else before voices are a problem with respect to psychosis.<br /><br />I say this as someone who from time to time hears an entire symphony orchestra playing in my head. It has never occurred to me that it's a problem, but I know of some people who find these sorts of events deeply worrying. I wonder how many people would do better if they didn't feel that hearing voices (or symphony orchestras) was necessarily a problem.Deborahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14182573274494086468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-38743528220928287642010-10-13T23:53:40.228+13:002010-10-13T23:53:40.228+13:00Teenaa koe e te whaine toa, e Adele,
Tuuhoe moumo...Teenaa koe e te whaine toa, e Adele,<br /><br />Tuuhoe moumou kai, moumou taon'a, moumou tan'ata ki te Po<br /><br />He tamariki o te koohu au hoki, nō Ruaatoki. Ko Mkura tooku ingoa ipuran'i anahe - he ingoa uhia, arohamai!<br /><br />Ko teenei taku mihi e rere nei, ko teenei taku tautoko e rere nei ki a koe, e te whānaun'a - ka mau te wehi, te ihi, te wana! <br /><br />I used to attempt this - lone tuuturu maaori voice in a digital space dominated by tauiwi - over at Public Address and that shit got tired quick. Noo reira, he mihi hoki ki tō hihiritan'a e haapai ana i te kaupapa nei, ko te kaupapa mana wahine, mana atua, mana whenua, mana tan'ata.Mkuranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-43435196569298308612010-10-13T23:14:58.278+13:002010-10-13T23:14:58.278+13:00Teenaa koe, Madeleine
Te Ao Maaori certainly does...Teenaa koe, Madeleine<br /><br />Te Ao Maaori certainly does have its own scientific premise. As an example, it seeks firstly not to dissect the natural world in order to explain it, and uses whakapapa as a research methodology. <br /><br />We also have a Maaori view of psychology. Hearing voices is not automatically labelled psychosis - as perhaps those voices do exist. <br /><br />The western scientific method is also not without flaw as it assumes an objective stance from an inherently subjective perception - defined by culture, education, politics, commercialism, funding, worldview, etc.<br /><br />Also, the quantum world of physics is transforming the view of the rationality of existence - it’s not so reasonable. I sometimes look to science in order to confirm or otherwise my perceptions under Te Ao Maaori - they are not inconsistent. <br /><br />What disturbs me about western science, however, is its treatment of the natural world - the animals used, the experiments and dissections made.Adelenoreply@blogger.com