tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post3848908676080944910..comments2023-10-07T22:37:49.244+13:00Comments on The Hand Mirror: Handy Andy he ain'tkatyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15742280289613450293noreply@blogger.comBlogger60125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-92030795896915472592010-07-19T11:12:32.688+12:002010-07-19T11:12:32.688+12:00"Oh Anon was. We are addressing the point tha..."Oh Anon was. We are addressing the point that if you said "I think it's perfectly acceptable for a man to rape a woman under certain circumstances" out loud and in public, you would be treated with as much contempt as Haden deserved. And you deserve now."<br /><br />I never said that at all so quit fibbing.My point was that...aside from us not knowing what really happened,is that this women HAD consented to sex with Brooke,she was in bed with him and they had had sex already and IF she had dozed off during another round with him I say that Brooke has a case that consent was still in effect.Maybe she said "mmmmm...thats nice...keep going".She may have and can't remember.I assume Brooke was also under the effect of alcohol too so why isn't he getting a free pass on his behaviour as this women has? His judgement may have been impaired at the time.Sure he's still responsible for his actions but then so is the Women.No-one comes out of this looking good.I also see that she pursued him again for sex so how traumitised was she..if at all as it was the flatmate and not her whos making an issue of this?<br /><br />Hadens right...Women have to take some responsibility for their actions when they seek to go fame screwing.Brookes let himself down with his behaviour re his wife etc but the woman and the flatmate are no angels either.Jamesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-23194557470282315332010-07-13T20:37:12.704+12:002010-07-13T20:37:12.704+12:00I think I have observed the cooling off period, so...I think I have observed the cooling off period, so I would like to add a comment.<br /><br />Firstly, I think my point about separating out consequences from blame is misunderstood. I'll probably do a post about that on my blog.<br /><br />Secondly, so that it is clear: My opinion is that if a man has sex with a women who, for whatever reason, doesn't consent (for example, being asleep or passed out) they are obviously guilty of rape.<br /><br />In terms of talking about the victim and how they might avoid that situation, without my comments being interpreted as "she asked for it" there was an interesting case I read in the papers today:<br /><br />An airline pilot had sex with a stewardess and she woke up the next day feeling sick and disgusted. She was drunk at the time and does not remember consenting. He claims she most definitely consented.<br /><br />It seems clear to me that this man (married) put himself in a situation that he had options over. He could have and should have sent the women away when she was clearly drunk, and he did not. He had choices. He now faces a rape charge, and if men started behaving like gentlemen, then people like him wouldn't be in such a situation. Am I being too harsh do you think?ZenTigerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07888629207437612884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-66359253641998681702010-07-13T18:02:22.499+12:002010-07-13T18:02:22.499+12:00"No problem with that.....so your point is......"No problem with that.....so your point is....?"<br /><br />...that you're misinterpreting consent in a sexual relationship that is not your own. You said it yourself "The finer points of what really happened are still beyond us" so why are you so intent in labelling this women/rape victims "slappers", yet picky about "facts" when we call you on your bullshit? Double standards.<br /><br />"You aren't addressing what I am meaning"<br /><br />Oh Anon was. We are addressing the point that if you said "I think it's perfectly acceptable for a man to rape a woman under certain circumstances" out loud and in public, you would be treated with as much contempt as Haden deserved. And you deserve now.A Nonny Moosenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-29522629687997601542010-07-13T17:15:32.570+12:002010-07-13T17:15:32.570+12:00Uhggg! Why bother.
"Man: Honey, that was rea...Uhggg! Why bother.<br /><br />"Man: Honey, that was really nice. What say we try that in our sexual repertoire.<br />Woman: Ok, I agree. I'll let you know if I want it. If I wake up and say no, please stop.<br />Man: Ok, sounds good."<br /><br />No problem with that.....so your point is....?<br /><br />"Please tell this to a mental health professional. If they say this is entirely normal then fine, but I really think you would benefit from talking to someone about this before you hurt someone."<br /><br />Oh blow away you ninny.You aren't addressing what I am meaning and instead making shit up.Im not wasting my time with you.<br /><br />Again people...we weren't there.The finer points of what really happened are still beyond us so until we have concrete evidence of actual wrong doing then...Jamesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-22304865423010711052010-07-13T16:37:23.730+12:002010-07-13T16:37:23.730+12:00James trust me I have plenty of 'real world...James trust me I have plenty of 'real world' experience to draw from. <br /><br />Please tell this to a mental health professional. If they say this is entirely normal then fine, but I really think you would benefit from talking to someone about this before you hurt someone.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-31686977767562544742010-07-13T16:29:42.135+12:002010-07-13T16:29:42.135+12:00"Its quite a common thing for people to wake ..."Its quite a common thing for people to wake their partners in the morning with hand relief and oral sex etc....does this count as rape? "<br /><br />Only if you don't have consent. Here, lets try out the conversation.<br /><br />Man: Honey, that was really nice. What say we try that in our sexual repertoire. <br />Woman: Ok, I agree. I'll let you know if I want it. If I wake up and say no, please stop.<br />Man: Ok, sounds good.<br /><br />versus<br /><br />Man: Oh yeah! Oh yeah! Uh huh.<br />Woman: blzzzt fghhh nurhhh zzzzzzA Nonny Moosenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-90582246611421579212010-07-13T16:24:02.486+12:002010-07-13T16:24:02.486+12:00"To finish and cum obviously."
Withdraw..."To finish and cum obviously."<br /><br />Withdraw and use your hand. Simple. An unconscious or sleeping partner, no matter how many times they've consented to sex, is not your meat glove or cum recepticle. <br /><br />"evidence of what her intentions were and that they ended up in bed together"<br /><br />A woman is quite entitled to her sexual agency, and if she wants to bed a celebrity, that's her choice. She can say yes to any sex act. But the moment she says, or is INCAPABLE (ie: unconscious, impaired) of saying No, none of her previous consents mean jack shit. <br /><br />"Its common knowledge theres a slapper culture in NZ looking to bed the famous and for him to be pilloried by the PC for speaking this truth just makes them look pathetic and out of touch while he looks honest and down to earth."<br /><br />Bingo spot after bingo spot. C'mon James, try harder. <br />Your 'slapper' is a woman in charge of her sexuality; for you to give her a denigrating nick name means you don't respect a woman's sexuality.<br /><br />PC; code for 'I don't want to think about my privilege'.<br /><br />'Honest and down to earth': 'speaks the truth that *I* want to hear, so that I don't have to challenge my assumptions about rape, or the sexual power I hold over women' Because if a man you respect (a celebrity, a sportsman, your dad, your brother, your mate, your workmate) is held accountable for rape, or being a rape apologist, then ANY man can be held accountable.A Nonny Moosenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-18251684317325291232010-07-13T16:22:05.628+12:002010-07-13T16:22:05.628+12:00"James - please get help from a mental health..."James - please get help from a mental health professional. If you honestly think it is ok to continue having sex with someone who has passed out then I think you are a danger to women."<br /><br />Typical knee jerk reaction without any effort to examine the points I actually made.Wise up.You need a better argument than "Men always bad and wrong while Women are always victims and right".The real worlds somewhat different.Jamesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-67961703733393055322010-07-13T16:18:45.613+12:002010-07-13T16:18:45.613+12:00"Yes if someone passes out you stop having se..."Yes if someone passes out you stop having sex. Yes if someone dozes off you stop 'pumping away'.<br /><br />Why is that even a question? I despair of building a sexual culture which isn't a rape culture if people can ask those sorts of questions."<br /><br />Because its not black and white.I have dozed off while reciving oral from a girlfriend...it was so relaxing I drifted off.Did I want her to stop? No...certainly not.<br /><br />I have returned the favour to a Woman who did the same,drifted off to sleep...she was very pleased and insisted I do it again.Its quite a common thing for people to wake their partners in the morning with hand relief and oral sex etc....does this count as rape? I'd bet money that happens alot amoungst people.Jamesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-56299333799059453352010-07-13T16:09:58.716+12:002010-07-13T16:09:58.716+12:00James - please get help from a mental health profe...James - please get help from a mental health professional. If you honestly think it is ok to continue having sex with someone who has passed out then I think you are a danger to women.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-89070500324764940392010-07-13T15:50:41.390+12:002010-07-13T15:50:41.390+12:00"And if someone is no longer conscious why on..."And if someone is no longer conscious why on earth do you want to keep having sex with them? Isn't it a mutual (or indeed group) act?"<br /><br />To finish and cum obviously.<br />None of us were there or know the full facts.Maybe Brooke was about to cum and good luck trying to stop that with a man at that moment of release.If however he only started to do the deed AFTER she passed out I agree thats way creepy and totally wrong and he deserves all he gets.But theres major grey around at what point in the exercise did she pass out and was she happy with what was happening prior to that.I say based on the evidence of what her intentions were and that they ended up in bed together that she was.If Brooke was doing something she hadn't wanted,like anal, while she was out then hes dead to rights....but then...what do we really know?<br /><br />And Haden was right in what he said.Its common knowledge theres a slapper culture in NZ looking to bed the famous and for him to be pilloried by the PC for speaking this truth just makes them look pathetic and out of touch while he looks honest and down to earth.Jamesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-41231472086872514132010-07-13T15:03:36.690+12:002010-07-13T15:03:36.690+12:00Yes James that is a difficult question. What is s...Yes James that is a difficult question. What is someone to do when the person they are having sex with passes out? <br /><br />And by difficult I mean terrifying.<br /><br />Yes if someone passes out you stop having sex. Yes if someone dozes off you stop 'pumping away'.<br /><br />Why is that even a question? I despair of building a sexual culture which isn't a rape culture if people can ask those sorts of questions.Maiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17212711843307060731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-38840480264771110462010-07-13T15:02:24.691+12:002010-07-13T15:02:24.691+12:00I don't think there is any point at which you ...<i>I don't think there is any point at which you can say consent cannot be withdrawn during sex. </i><br />Sorry, reading that back I can see the double negative is confusing.<br /><br />To state it another way, I think that anyone involved can withdraw consent at any point during sex and that should be respected (i.e. sex stops).Juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08977150346842277994noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-45195063379029972812010-07-13T14:59:46.284+12:002010-07-13T14:59:46.284+12:00This post, and discussion, isn't really about ...This post, and discussion, isn't really about the merits or otherwise of the case against Brooke. There is a lot of water to go under the bridge yet. <br /><br />That said, not speaking specifically about the allegations against Brooke, I think consent is something that should be actively given and actively sought, and if there is any concern that consent may have been withdrawn (or cannot be actively given) then you should stop. I don't think there is any point at which you can say consent cannot be withdrawn during sex. <br /><br />And if someone is no longer conscious why on earth do you want to keep having sex with them? Isn't it a mutual (or indeed group) act?Juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08977150346842277994noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-23735518195860426132010-07-13T14:14:29.594+12:002010-07-13T14:14:29.594+12:00But this woman was perfectly happy to have consent...But this woman was perfectly happy to have consenting sex with Brooke beforehand,indeed she initiated it by stalking him to bed him.And its still very grey regarding just when she passed out in relation to when she and Brooke were at it.If say your sexual partner were to simply doze off in the middle of the act with you and you keep "pumping away" is that rape?<br /><br />How do we know that they had not already begun consentually screwing (again) when she passed out? And what is Brooke supposed to do? Stop?....or carry on as consent has not been withdrawn...or has it by virtue of her no longer being conscious?<br /><br />In my view there was no rape as consent had obviously been given previously and was still in effect.<br /><br />What are the rules...anyone?Jamesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-62510937151276678962010-07-13T12:52:38.776+12:002010-07-13T12:52:38.776+12:00Question: improvement or not if Haden is replaced ...Question: improvement or not if Haden is replaced as rugby "ambassador" or whatever by Lucia Maria?<br /><br />Pro: not Haden<br />Con: not as diplomatic as Haden<br /><br />Pro: would give handy tips on personal safety<br />Con: personal safety tips would involve gems such as "Tell your daughter not to sleep around as well. She'll be far safer that way."McFlockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14288270169212126043noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-569688735052027412010-07-13T09:32:15.667+12:002010-07-13T09:32:15.667+12:00I note that Lucia Maria quite quickly deleted a co...I note that Lucia Maria quite quickly deleted a comment along the lines of keeping a son safe by not letting them become an alter boy on her blog.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-46868187296397823392010-07-12T19:37:23.794+12:002010-07-12T19:37:23.794+12:00Lucia Maria compared rape with an internet blog co...Lucia Maria compared rape with an internet blog comments thread ......... wow .<br /><br />Speechlessnznativenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-51947934856112026882010-07-12T13:23:22.844+12:002010-07-12T13:23:22.844+12:00A fresh perspective?
I was having a chat to a ma...A fresh perspective? <br /><br />I was having a chat to a male friend of mine about this recently. <br />He said he could "see where Andy was coming from with warning girls not to go near rugby players". His take was that "rugby players have some real scum bags in the group."<br />My opinion was that if the problem is the PLAYERS take them off the street, and leave the girls out of it. Especially in a public statement.<br />As for "putting yourself out there" I asked him that if I was slumped naked and unconcious on queen street what would he do?<br />He said he would cover me, and take me somewhere safe.<br />As would many (I hope Most) men. The abberation is where a vulnerable person is seen as an opportunity to dominate rather than someone to help or simply avoid.<br />Again the issue is with the mindset of the 'attacker' rather than victim.<br /><br />I can see why the majority of people who have never felt vulnerable or frightened might think it was a well meant statement, a warning to women. <br />The fact of the matter is, that every time some lucky, sheltered person gets up and questions why a victim became a victim we are yet again Missing The Point.ScubaNursenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-17908438292353881382010-07-12T12:42:00.029+12:002010-07-12T12:42:00.029+12:00I've had a bit to do with public safety messag...I've had a bit to do with public safety messages, and Haden wasn't anywhere close. <br /><br />Firstly, if it was about warning women that rugby "icons" were/are prone to be rapists, then choosing a medium that has a high female audience rating would be appropriate. Deaker's show doesn't strike me as targetting that demographic, but I might be wrong.<br /><br />Secondly, to equate allegedly raping a woman (sorry, allegedly "having sex with a near-comatose teenager") with being caught receiving a consensual bj in a car takes minimsation to the extreme, which is not conducive to positive reception by the alleged audience (the foolish women who "target rugby players").<br /><br />Thirdly, there is a subtle nuance between saying, particularly when advising people of a temporarily raised threat level, "we advise people to take extra care in this area" and saying "you do this at your peril" (which implies both a contribution to the offender's decision and a lack of sympathy or help from anyone else). Haden blatantly missed this nuance.<br /><br /><br />The guy was minimising alleged offending by comparing it to consensual acts and suggesting that the victim contributed to the alleged offense by being Drunk Within Sight of a Male (a crime punishable by rape). Personally, as a male I find this insulting - MEN CAN SAY NO, TOO. If a bloke (yes, even one who is not a gentleman) sees a drunk woman in a short skirt he is not driven mad by lust. <br /><br />Neither of the websites mentioned by ZT did any of these things. Even the mention of tight skirts and heels was missing the tagline "wear these at your peril", and mentioned it only on the basis that slightly more extreme measures might be required to enable you to run away faster than the attacker. <br /><br />In summary, if Haden was delivering a public safety message on avoiding higher-threat situations he should probably have chosen a different media outlet, avoided minimising the extent of the offending, and avoided implying that past survivors contributed to the alleged offence. And he might also have said a line or two about encouraging witnesses/survivors of similar offending to contact the police or support groups, or something practical to do if a woman accidentally finds herself alone with a rugby player. <br /><br />So he is either extraordinarily bad at issuing public safety messages, or his words should be taken at face value. Either way it was a highly unimpressive effort.McFlockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14288270169212126043noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-79547966514416624612010-07-12T11:46:41.258+12:002010-07-12T11:46:41.258+12:00Good idea Julie!Good idea Julie!Boganettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07253374355820020132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-9079885329379359482010-07-12T11:25:23.837+12:002010-07-12T11:25:23.837+12:00I'm not sure this debate is going to go anywhe...I'm not sure this debate is going to go anywhere good. Can I suggest a cooling off period, where new voices may wish to contribute to this thread, but B, ZT, LM and myself back off for a while? Personally I'd like to be able to not stew in a state of rage for a couple of hours.Juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08977150346842277994noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-61949085919369413952010-07-12T11:17:11.289+12:002010-07-12T11:17:11.289+12:00"The problem is, she isn't talking about ..."The problem is, she isn't talking about rape survivors. You just connect it that way"<br /><br />Yeah I forgot she doesn't call women who survive rape "rape survivors". They're just sluts who shouldn't have tried to score sportsmen/any men.Boganettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07253374355820020132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-21599474099807146862010-07-12T11:15:43.021+12:002010-07-12T11:15:43.021+12:00Ughh this is getting pointless because you don'...Ughh this is getting pointless because you don't seem to understand anything about rape.<br /><br />Rape is about power not sex. The idea that women will be raped if they're wearing a short skirt is a myth.<br /><br />Congratulations on not waving your iPhone around - as a woman I can't NOT wave myself around. <br /><br />If wearing a potato sack and trying not to make too much noise actually stopped rape then don't you think women would do it?<br /><br />And being drunk may diminish your safety - but the only alternative is to never drink, ever. And if you're sober your whole life guess what ZT you're still at risk of rape. Sober women are raped too.<br /><br />Comments like "And I do advise my children how to avoid dangerous situations, how to recognise them and to think about what they are doing." are offensive. You are so used to saying statements like that and getting a cheery pat on the back from your fundy friends that you don't even realise they're offensive. Women who are raped ARE THINKING ABOUT WHAT THEY ARE DOING. <br /><br />There are no signs saying "warning rapist ahead" and "don't enter this dangerous situation". Rape survivors aren't idiots who weren't aware of their surroundings or 'weren't thinking' or needed "situational awareness". Don't you think if you knew how to avoid rape and all it took was having a quick look around we might not have rape?<br /><br />Getting raped isn't the equivalent of not looking left and right and therefore being hit by a car.<br /><br />I'm sorry you were attacked. That's a terrible thing.<br /><br />But please don't think that because you were able to fight off your attacker other women can and should do the same. The same advice for women you give out usually says not to fight back. Or wait is that fight back. Or no it's scream. No wait it's don't scream. It's kick them in the nuts. No that makes them angry. No it's gouge their eyes. No it's stay still. <br /><br />Yeah - whatever you do it's a teeny bit your fault.Boganettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07253374355820020132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-89708441725209077502010-07-12T11:08:41.365+12:002010-07-12T11:08:41.365+12:00Lucia Maria's post really says a lot about wha...<em>Lucia Maria's post really says a lot about what she thinks about rape survivors. </em><br /><br />The problem is, she isn't talking about rape survivors. You just connect it that way.ZenTigerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07888629207437612884noreply@blogger.com