tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post7695302932051331086..comments2023-10-07T22:37:49.244+13:00Comments on The Hand Mirror: Rape myths and Julian Assangekatyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15742280289613450293noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-77362335883800170482010-12-25T14:30:27.439+13:002010-12-25T14:30:27.439+13:00except that sady doyle doesn't think assange i...<i>except that sady doyle doesn't think assange is guilty, and has never said that he is. </i><br /><br />He is guilty, though.Acid Queennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-24132004350324169702010-12-24T21:06:16.693+13:002010-12-24T21:06:16.693+13:00except that sady doyle doesn't think assange i...except that sady doyle doesn't think assange is guilty, and has never said that he is. perhaps you'd like to take the trouble to actually read what she has said before making a comment.stargazerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00430290445762377335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-74742517479120345632010-12-24T14:28:59.540+13:002010-12-24T14:28:59.540+13:00You're not getting a rerun of the Polanski tri...You're not getting a rerun of the Polanski trial. Just as people like Sady Doyle can believe Assange is guilty and support Wikileaks, people like me can think Polanski is a rapist and Assange is an inconsiderate jerk.Will Shetterlyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08539053268352597627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-83509707985368938812010-12-13T10:06:00.160+13:002010-12-13T10:06:00.160+13:00Not lying. Just expressing my opinion on your beha...Not lying. Just expressing my opinion on your behavior as I see it on TS and in this post. The difference between having an personal opinion about someone and 'lying' about them appears to escape you.<br /><br />Anyway, this discussion really belongs back on TS and not on this post with its different topic. <br /><br />I can feel a post coming on about the developments in the extradition - especially with the first link in this post which explains more about the actual legal accusation. My last post was limited to the information available on the 4th. It is rather out of date. <br /><br />I'll put my stalled post on script-bunnies on hold and write another one.<br /><br />BTW: Thanks to whoever put this discussion back together. The replies without the comment being replied to was getting quite disconcerting.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04341826577572802145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-7109749415146075872010-12-13T09:03:53.616+13:002010-12-13T09:03:53.616+13:00Keep lying -- about me and your consistent troll-f...Keep lying -- about me and your consistent troll-farming - mate, because I won't stop telling the truth about sewer blogs that perpetuate rape culture and male privilege. That you consider that "denigration" say a lot more about you than me. And I'll continue wearing your contempt and mendacity as a badge of honour.Craig Ranapiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08923246310584658857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-89947625954731216402010-12-13T08:52:21.693+13:002010-12-13T08:52:21.693+13:00Craig, the comments in the post were pretty clean....Craig, the comments in the post were pretty clean. I binned some by first time posters that were along the lines that you are claiming. Almost all of the comments were either on the topic, or like Simon C's - off topic but interesting enough in their own right to leave in the discussion. <br /><br />The debate in that and subsequent posts has been quite well behaved. There were very few that referred to the women concerned directly.<br /><br />There were a few notable exceptions like yourself - where the emphasis was on denigration rather than debate. I guess it takes a particular type of mind to put words into the mouths of anyone that disagrees with you.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04341826577572802145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-45059119320172382592010-12-13T08:29:59.977+13:002010-12-13T08:29:59.977+13:00That's spectacularly disingenuous, lprent. Yo...That's spectacularly disingenuous, lprent. You're now trashing the chief prosecutor because she wants to conduct a bloody interview.<br /><br />And entirely typical for the likes of you and David Farrar, that you take no ownership or responsibility for the comments YOU let stand trashing the compainants as whores and liars.Craig Ranapiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08923246310584658857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-70028995743142193712010-12-13T02:57:18.357+13:002010-12-13T02:57:18.357+13:00Maia - good post and quite different subject from ...Maia - good post and quite different subject from my post. That first link was especially informative.<br /><br />Some of the comments above about my post on the Swedish use of Interpol however are going to divert me somewhat.<br /><br />I was questioning what looks to me to be the misuse of a Interpol red notice to pick someone up for <i>questioning</i>. <br /><br />The facts of the case do not appear to have been in dispute. Assange had already made been questioned and made statements to the prosecutors. Motivations of course are a different story - but that is something a court should decide - not a prosecutor. It is difficult to see why the prosecutor seems to think that having Assange in Sweden is required for her to decide to lay charges. <br /><br />The prosecutor should have to lay charges or at least present to both Interpol and the British court about what is different in the evidence between when Assange left Sweden with the charges dropped, and when Ny found 'new evidence'. <br /><br />In the link that Craig R so kindly left above (more relevant than the twaddle he left on my post)..<br /><br />The lawyer for the women in the case said:- <br /><br /><i>Whether Assange will be prosecuted in Sweden on the four charges of rape, sexual molestation, and coercion against him depends on whether or not the Swedish director of prosecutions, Marianne Ny, finds enough evidence to be confident that the case will stand up in court. Before she does that, she needs to question Assange further, and may also need to question the women again.<br /><br />The probability of the prosecution going ahead is around 50-50, or perhaps a little more than that, Borgström said.</i><br /><br />To me that looks awfully like a fishing expedition by the prosecutor. How likely is that new evidence just appeared months after the initial charges were dropped. 50:50 chance of new charges??<br /><br />The prosecutor could have asked those questions in London without all of the expense of interpol, extradition hearings, lawyers, and the media furor? Is it the nature of the Swedish justice system to try people in the media? <br /><br />To me it looks more like a politician and a prosecutor wanting to have a good media circus for reasons other than purely legal reasons.<br /><br />Dear 'reader': I'm not 'defensive', just quite irritated at people wanting to hijack a post. I asked some quite specific questions about the misuse of the international police system. I was interested in the legal process being used. That is quite evident from the title and content of my post. <br /><br />I'd be asking those questions and just as suspicious if it was a accusations of fraud or theft. <br /><br />But the accusation were not what my post was about, as I pointed out to several of the people above who wanted to hijack the comments. <br /><br />I get annoyed by people wanting to divert off into a completely different topic. There are avenues to to that without disrupting the discussion on the topic of the post.<br /><br />If another author else had written a post on the topic like Maia has that was on your topic, then that is fine and it'd have been moderated accordingly. <br /><br />If people wanted to write a different slant on the topic at The Standard, then they can use OpenMike, or write their own post on a different blog, or use the contribute post button at The Standard for a guest post. <br /><br />But exhibiting the poor behaviour of simply trying to hijack a post away from what the author is writing about is simply boorish behaviour regardless how strongly you feel about it. It will usually win you some quite irritated responses from the author and/or moderators on most moderated blogs.<br /><br />Hopefully Maia won't get too annoyed about this rather long and mostly off-topic comment. But the comments of the lazy needed answering.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04341826577572802145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-41637106529919108672010-12-13T00:02:01.183+13:002010-12-13T00:02:01.183+13:00Jane - Done!
Thanks for your comments everyone.Jane - Done!<br /><br />Thanks for your comments everyone.Maiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17212711843307060731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-75069235502712132282010-12-12T12:36:49.975+13:002010-12-12T12:36:49.975+13:00Simon C, If you are still around, many thanks for...Simon C, If you are still around, many thanks for your calm reasoned arguments on the standard. I stopped reading the thread very early in the piece and have only recently gone back to see how it went.<br /><br />It's really difficult taking on those sorts of arguments. They inevitably end up with the person most plainly, and reasonably stating their argument, being accused of being hysterical/hypersensitive/unreasonable from someone who is being highly reactive and defensive.<br />It's like some sort of script.readernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-87705972130187659532010-12-12T09:02:33.159+13:002010-12-12T09:02:33.159+13:00That Cupcakes for all link is just rape apologist ...That Cupcakes for all link is just rape apologist bullshit. Frankly I think it should be removed as it's just hate spam.Janenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-64985883659841781412010-12-10T22:29:58.746+13:002010-12-10T22:29:58.746+13:00Very important post, thanks Maia and commenters.
...Very important post, thanks Maia and commenters.<br /><br />Simon, well done on holding your ground at the Standard, and glad you got some support there in the end.wekanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-80166897523345495342010-12-10T22:24:10.629+13:002010-12-10T22:24:10.629+13:00@Craig
@Flynn the Cat: Bizarre as this may seem, ...@Craig<br /><br /><i>@Flynn the Cat: Bizarre as this may seem, perhaps the whole fraking world doesn't revolve around Julian Assange and Wikileaks.<br /><br />And much food for thought in how you managed to comment on a post headlined "Rape myths and Julian Assange" and the complainants didn't even rate a mention. 'Cause it's always all about man, right?</i><br /><br />1. Wikileaks is the only way I have a clue who he even is - bascially he's 'the Wikileaks guy'. Of COURSE the two facts are connected. And whle 'revolve' is a strong word, Wikileaks is a huge issue all ovr the internet right not. That's the bit people know about, not this 'random Julian guy'. <br /><br />Which was my point - I was talking about the responses in general, not the specific case and the right or wrongness of it.<br /><br />And 2. Cause I was addressing the content, not the title. And sure I could have written and entire essay addressing every point, but I didn't feel it was necessary as most of it had already been said. In the original post, which I am commenting on.<br /><br />And I specifically said I hadn't looked up the facts yet - which weren't laid out in the post, and was what I went to do next - and was just talking about how it looked to someone who mainly knew about all the <i>political</i> drama. In this case, it's all about the human rights, or the politics. I don't care about 'the man' either way, and you'll note one of my options was that he DID do it.<br /><br />I won't condemn or sympathise with someone based on 'what might or might not have done'. I can be disgusted at the way rape only becomes serious when it's convenient (and here, to be <i>extremely</i> clear, and mean to governments and politicians, i.e. mostly men, as well as half the bloggers people are complaining about who are vilifying him because he's an evil terrorist person)Flynn the Cathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07359358579031758394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-28746335248768504552010-12-10T19:19:08.286+13:002010-12-10T19:19:08.286+13:00Right on. I've been fighting this battle with ...Right on. I've been fighting this battle with Lprent on the Standard, to little avail.Simon Cnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-88736926601878062332010-12-10T17:14:02.594+13:002010-12-10T17:14:02.594+13:00From the right, and powerful political and corpora...<b>From the right, and powerful political and corporate entities there is the use/manipulation of a gender/feminist issue (rape allegations) to try to shut down democracy.</b> <br /><br />Only too aware of this.<br /><br />Problem is, it seems to be giving a kind of licence to some left-wingers to air their pet myths and prejudices and endorse rape-culture, without significant challenge. <br /><br />(Not to mention how galling it is to hear ordinarily anti-feminist conservatives suddenly 'caring deeply' about the rights of women to score a political point.)readernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-34708092145252280082010-12-10T16:35:34.531+13:002010-12-10T16:35:34.531+13:00I'm in agreement with waiting to see what evid...I'm in agreement with waiting to see what evidence the legal process shows as it plays out. I don't consider I have enough information at the moment to make a judgement about Assange's guilt. There's a lot of politically-motivated stuff floating around, and I find it hard to decide on what is truth and what is distortion.<br /><br />I see gendered allegations, manipulations and myths coming from (at least) 2 directions. From the left (probably from some on the right too), there is the employment of dubious rape myths by some people. From the right, and powerful political and corporate entities there is the use/manipulation of a gender/feminist issue (rape allegations) to try to shut down democracy. <br /><br />This latter strand reminds me of the way the Bush government used the notion of liberation of Afhganistan women, as part of their justification for aggressive and violent intervention in the country. To me this was/is just a cynical and selective use of feminist discourses, without any real committment to the cause. And I don't think it's that helpful for feminism or democracy.<br /><br />Part of the problem that Wikileaks (and its supporters and spin-offs) is challenging, is the pitiful state of western mainstream media. The MSM tends to support the powerful (and diverse aspects of masculine domination) through media manipulation and spin.<br /><br />We need radical initiatives like this.Carolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11140142800525092834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-43500611703273238122010-12-10T16:07:48.791+13:002010-12-10T16:07:48.791+13:00I don't know what you call it, Mikaere Curtis,...<i>I don't know what you call it, Mikaere Curtis, but inspiring a global campaign of cyber-slut shaming seems like power to me. And a very ugly form of power, at that.</i><br />Craig, if you took the time to actually read my comment, you would have seen that I actually said that Assange DID have power. I was contrasting it with the power of a cop, which, in the case of Shollum and Shipton, was the ability to rape a young woman in Tauranga <b>with impunity that stretched to almost two decades.</b> <br /><br />Both abuses of power (by the pro-Assange hactivists, and by S&S) are ugly, Craig Ranapia, but at least the women in Sweden are able to do something about it. Having the power to get away with rape is, IMO, its own special kind of ugly.Mikaere Curtishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01940662768746135632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-45018486694167392092010-12-10T15:36:14.256+13:002010-12-10T15:36:14.256+13:00I didn't say I thought ALL men were rapists. ...I didn't say I thought ALL men were rapists. I said I thought Assange was a rapist.<br /><br />My judgement comes from listening to the testimony of his victims and judging them as sincere.<br /><br />And if the courts come to the wrong decision, well gee, what a surprise! Maybe the courts might just be biased in favour of letting rapists walk free? Shocking, I know.Acid Queennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-90738575348247065992010-12-10T15:23:16.222+13:002010-12-10T15:23:16.222+13:00I don't think celebrity status is the same kin...<i>I don't think celebrity status is the same kind of power that a police officer has.</i><br /><br />Well, I'm going to have to agree to disagree when your "celebrity status" is such your #hactivist fans quite cheerfully reveal your "persecutors" identities, upload photos and other personal details, spread false allegations that one is a CIA agent and bait in a "honey trap" and, apparently, being threatened with an even more intense "internet campaign" to harass and intimidate you into silence. <br /><br />I don't know what you call it, Mikaere Curtis, but inspiring a global campaign of cyber-slut shaming seems like power to me. And a very ugly form of power, at that.Craig Ranapiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08923246310584658857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-53404502479432464002010-12-10T14:26:37.966+13:002010-12-10T14:26:37.966+13:00But we have to remember that even if Assange is al...<i>But we have to remember that even if Assange is allowed to go free by the Swedish "justice" system, he is still a rapist. He's just a rapist who got away with it.</i><br />How did you arrive at this conclusion: Guilty By Accusation or All Men Are Rapists ? Surely these are rape myths too ?<br /><br />Assange has had complaints laid against him by two different women, and he clearly has a case to answer.<br /><br />I'll willing to let the judicial process proceed, and reserve my judgment until the facts come out in court. <br /><br /><i>I'd say that Assange has more power than Rickards. He's a global figure, Rickards is (or was) a provincial policeman.</i><br /><br />I don't think celebrity status is the same kind of power that a police officer has. When Rickard's mates Shipton and Shollum were raping, they did it in the full knowledge that their victim would have no one to turn to. Assange clearly doesn't have that advantage.Mikaere Curtishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01940662768746135632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-25389694711268021312010-12-10T11:56:00.494+13:002010-12-10T11:56:00.494+13:00All true Carol
But we have to remember that even ...All true Carol<br /><br />But we have to remember that even if Assange is allowed to go free by the Swedish "justice" system, he is still a rapist. He's just a rapist who got away with it.Acid Queennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-37415408707546693222010-12-10T10:04:22.791+13:002010-12-10T10:04:22.791+13:00I agree that Assange has done democracy a great se...I agree that Assange has done democracy a great service in his wikileaks activities, and that he <i>could</i> also be a rapist. I also agree that some left-wing defense of Assange has stepped into dubious territory of supporting retrograde rape myths. But, OTOH, some powerful entities have also tried to manipulate the rape story to their own ends.<br /><br />I think Swedish law should be allowed to take its usual course (or at least the best course possible under Swedish law to establish whether a rape has occurred and convict if it has).<br /><br />There are other questions about whether Assange has been treated the same as other alleged rapists under Swedish law, or if the case has been hijacked by other powerful political entities. There seem to be attempts to use the arrest as a means to extradict Assange to the US, for instance. <br /><br />However, as Steven Oates said last night on Citizen A,<br />http://tumeke.blogspot.com/2010/12/citizen-7pm-tonight_09.html<br /><br />the wikileaks activities are bigger than Assange, and will continue even if Assange is removed from the scene. No doubt the case, the accusations, and any conviction of Assange will be used by powerful government & corporate interests to smear Wikileaks. For me Wikileaks is doing important stuff for democracy, and I will defend and support their activities.<br /><br />As for Assange, the Swedish police & legal processes should be allowed to take their course in Sweden, and should not be used by the US or any other government or corporate entity for their own ends - those ends being to discredit Wikileaks.<br /><br />And the left shouldn't fall into the trap of using rape myths to defend Assange. Wikileaks is about supporting democracy, and that isn't helped by using oppressive rape myths to defend it.Carolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11140142800525092834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-68760064814022246532010-12-10T09:43:54.400+13:002010-12-10T09:43:54.400+13:00And cue standard personally abusive, dodge-the-poi...And cue standard personally abusive, dodge-the-point deployment of handwavium from Lynn Prentice... Like David Farrar over at Kiwibog, the troll-farming fu is <i>awesome</i>, still I obviouslyhit a nerve.Craig Ranapiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08923246310584658857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-25916837939184167462010-12-10T09:28:59.558+13:002010-12-10T09:28:59.558+13:00I'm especially disgusted by The Standard. Prop...<i>I'm especially disgusted by The Standard. Props to A nonny moose and Graig Ranapia for their comments</i><br /><br />You're welcome, Anne. But I wish I hadn't now -- or at least not subscribed to new comments on that thread. The toxic levels of rape bingo/slut-shaming and reflexive male privilege going on there are really triggering.Craig Ranapiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08923246310584658857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8770341086445997547.post-80574462517844402302010-12-10T09:18:24.790+13:002010-12-10T09:18:24.790+13:00Thanks Maia. I'd been feeling icky all week a...Thanks Maia. I'd been feeling icky all week about the left's response over this, so I appreciate seeing you articulate this here.Samnoreply@blogger.com