Tuesday, 21 September 2010

pay them for their work

i hear there's going to be this rugby world cup thing next year. well actually i've heard about as much about it as i want to, and there's quite a while to go yet. yes, i'm one of those who's just not into rugby, so not enthused about the mayhem and madness that will take over the country for some weeks next year.

i understand this event is supposed bring $2.1 billion worth of economic benefit to the country, although there seem to be conflicting opinions on that. the benefits seem to be mostly indirect, in terms publicity & promotion of nz as a tourist destination.

what ever way you look at it, this is a commercial venture. it's certainly not a charitable one, and someone, somewhere will be making a heap of money from this. i suspect that "someone" will be the IRB, if other international events are anything to go by. and the tv networks. and the construction sector & hospitality people. if there wasn't money to be made, the thing wouldn't be happening every four years, after all.

so i really don't understand, in amongst all the hundreds of millions moving from here to there, why this event needs free labour from 5,000 volunteers. no other commercial venture would get away with labour without wages on this scale. i certainly don't think it can be justified if there are profits anywhere, made by anyone, that could be rightfully applied to the work done by these volunteers.

these projected benefits shouldn't just go into the hands of business. they should be shared by all those who put their time towards making the event a success. i hate the way volunteering for the world cup is being presented as some kind of charitable cause. i want to know exactly who is getting the benefit of such charity - i think everyone deserves to know that. because if people have time and energy to put towards a cause, i can think of many much better causes than this one.


Hugh said...

Surely if the people volunteering don't wish to be paid for their work, that's their right?

I agree that the government actively promoting the rugby World Cup as a worthy charitable cause is pretty lame. But I can't see any point in forcing the IRB to pay volunteers, particularly since they would likely just donate it all to the IRB.

Believe you me I understand entirely your annoyance at the World Cup and the massive accolades directed at it. But really if people want to give their time to it, there's not much that can be done.

stargazer said...

except that i never said that people should be banned for volunteering. what i said was that organisers should be paying people for the work that they do. those are two quite separate things. if people want to volunteer, that's fine. but the jobs currently available (eg in terms of parking attendants, hospitality etc) should be advertised as paid jobs.

Boganette said...

If you're into rugby the Rugby World Cup being in NZ is a huge deal. And being a volunteer means you get to be a part of it. It's not really something that someone who doesn't like rugby would understand. I would volunteer for the World Cup - I want to make sure it goes off without a hitch and I want to support the All Blacks. If you love rugby and the All Blacks then it's not that big of a deal to volunteer.

When a country hosts the Olympics people volunteer because they're excited about the Games and they want to show off their country to other people. It's no different to that.

You can't put volunteering for the World Cup in the same basket as volunteering for anything else. I volunteer for a heap of things and I don't consider any of my other volunteer jobs (clothes sorting/rest home work/pet therapy etc) to be the same as World Cup volunteering.

The Rugby World Cup is going to be an awesome, amazing event. I can't wait for it. And I'm really proud we get to hold it in New Zealand. If we win it will be incredible. Just thinking about it is getting me all excited!

Think of all the people from all over the world who are going to be here for it. It's gonna be awesome.

Boganette said...

In saying that - I have a lot of friends really struggling to find work right now. So it would be good to have paid jobs during the RWC.

stargazer said...

and it's your last point that i'm really getting at. especially when there are some organisations that will be making heaps of money, there is no reason for these jobs to be unpaid. of course i want the thing to be successful, even if i'm not personally interested in it. but there is absolutely no doubt that this is a commercial venture, not a charitable one.

Hugh said...

OK Stargazer, but as I think I said earlier, if people really want to volunteer, won't they just give any money they're paid back to the IRB?

stargazer said...

hugh, that's fine. if they don't need the money (or even if they do need it), they can donate part of all of it to whomever they choose. if they choose the rugby world cup, then good on them. but that's different from a commercial, profit-making venture seeking free labour while making millions of dollars in profits. that's what i object to.

Tamara said...

Aren't there also issues about lost income tax that would otherwise be coming to the public purse?

Hugh said...

I think the IRB would probably claim that they're not a profit-making enterprise. They may well come away from the World Cup in the black, but they won't return that profit to their "shareholders", they'll use it to promote rugby.

Personally I think the issue is less the use of unpaid volunteers, which effectively can't be promoted as long as there are people like Boganette out there who see it as worth contributing their time, as the fact that the IRB is effectively subsidised by the state, both directly (eg actual injections of money) and indirectly (the police providing free security services, etc). If an individual really cares that much, that's their outlook, but I really rather object to being forced to contribute my taxpayer dollars because the government thinks rugby is really important to me for some reason or other.

And I think Anne mentioned earlier that there's a measurable rise in domestic violence during the World Cup, but no action by the IRB to acknowledge this, let alone do something to mitigate it - let alone to actually ask why the game they love so much seems to provoke men into acts of violence.

Boganette said...

"let alone to actually ask why the game they love so much seems to provoke men into acts of violence."

- Do you really think it's the rugby match? Really?

Hugh said...

I said it "seems to" cause violence. It needs more study, obviously, but the fact that rugby is a violent game and that domestic violence surges alongside rugby matches seems to me to be at least a prima facie case that there's a link. I'd certainly love to know the IRB's position on this - and for that matter the Crown's - but neither seems interested.

I understand that as a rugby fan it's not pleasant to contemplate the possibility that the game you love has such unpleasant side effects. And I'm fully aware of the various rugby players who have spoken out publically against domestic violence. But at the same time for me rugby has always had a fairly close association with violence of all types, so it's hard to dismiss the connection between rugby and domestic violence out of hand because some All Black gave money to Women's Refuge.

Boganette said...

I don't see rugby as being violent. It's a contact sport - yes, like rugby league. But violent? Do you mean the tackles?

Games are usually on Friday and Saturday nights which are nights where people who drink a lot tend to drink a whole heap more. Games are often shown in pubs - again the connection to drinking. But looking at our drinking culture and the link to alcohol abuse and domestic violence is much harder than just painting rugby fans as violent oafs who beat their partners whenever the All Blacks lose.

I'm sure that men who go to fashion week and museums and drink red wine don't abuse their partners. It's only the bogan types who watch sport(yuck!). And that's handy because then at least we can spot them. Right?

When the articles about RWC and increases in domestic violence call-outs come out the reactions you get are immediate. It reinforces everything people who hate rugby and consider themselves above the uneducated types who watch it desperately want to believe about rugby fans. Shame feeling smug doesn't actually solve anything at all.

The US and Them mentality in this country that we have towards domestic violence needs to change. THAT will make a difference far more than a campaign by the IRB. Or 'some All Black giving money to Women's Refuge'.

Tamara said...

I'm with Boganette on this. I also gather that domestic violence incidents increase at Christmas time, which isn't much like the WRC at all, except for the drinking.

Tamara said...

Oops, RWC, sorry. Not a rugby follower myself.

Hugh said...

Boganette, I take your point about smugness or intellectual snobbery, and I certainly don't want to promote an Us vs Them mentality. I'm not arguing that domestic violence is limited to rugby fans let alone that they are all violent oafs. And obviously I'm not discounting the connection between alcohol and domestic abuse, although I would hardly call investigating that connection "hard" - in fact I'd say that connection is almost universally accepted. I'm pretty sure you'd get way more people to agree that alcohol contributes to domestic violence than rugby does.

But I think the evidence is too strong to be dismissed as just a product of intellectual snobbery. I do think rugby is violent. I don't think anybody would argue that tackles or scrums aren't violent. Sure, it's a violence that is controlled and consensual, but that doesn't make it any less violent.

I'm sorry you feel this view comes from smugness on my part. Perhaps I am smug but it also involves to a large degree the violence I've suffered from rugby players, both on the field and off. It also comes from the discussions I've had with family members about how the constant presence of rugby broadcasts and discussion of rugby melded seamlessly into the climate of fear, violence and derision that made their family lives living hells and have left them mentally scarred decades later. Obviously, it wasn't only the rugby, but it's hard to be told that rugby is harmless when my own experience and the experiences of those close to me tells me the exact opposite.

nznative said...

I'm sick of the steinlager allblacks and I'm sick of the rugby world cup.

I'm sick of the violent game rugby and ashamed of our rugby past which lead to the Montreal Olympic games being boycotted by many country's because New Zealand, a friend and supporter of the South African apartheid regime was there ( we played rugby with them when no-one else would ).

Its disgusting that an event like the rugby world cup should ask for free volunteers when the event itself will generate $$millions$$ in profits for already rich people and organizations.

I live in Wellington and wish the rugby world cup, the steinlager allblacks, and all the boozy boorish fans that come with them would bugger off .......

Here in Wellington the Council has pulled the funding for the Cuba Carnival which is a wonderful colorful event and given the money to the bloody rugby world cup ...........

Piss drinking rugby heads and a violent game have trumped the artists and musicians.

A weekend when I could enjoy taking the kids into town to have fun and be entertained is replaced by an environment where the city is more dangerous because of all the extra drunks.

One further bad effect of the rugby world cup is the National Govt is using it as an excuse to do nothing about the huge drug problem this country has with the drug alcohol.

In fact they are going to make it easier to pump out the booze leading up to and during the Rugby world cup.

Drink your steinlager ....... support the allblacks.

Talk about drug pushers .

Boganette said...

Of course you have to trust your experiences Hugh. I totally respect that. I grew up with rugby and rugby league. My father has always worked with rugby and league teams on various levels so it's just part of my life. But there is definitely some horrendous stuff that goes along with it. I don't watch League anymore because of the way the NRL hasn't addressed the way players treat women and the culture of rape/abuse in the sport. I re-read what I'd said yesterday and I sound really defensive. I guess I'm just sensitive when I feel like people are attacking rugby/rugby fans for no reason (similar to how I feel when people attack metal fans etc). Comments like NZ Native don't help at all. Especially since I left the Cuba Street Carnival early last year because of all the disgustingly drunk people there and the guy who almost mauled me in the street because he was off his face on E.

I would take my kid to a rugby match miles ahead of taking him to the Cuba Carnival.

The drink problem in NZ is wide-spread - it's lower/middle/upper class problem and all races too. To say it's just rugby fans is ridiculous. NZ Native's attitude doesn't help. But I respect what you're saying Hugh and I'm sorry that you've had such awful experiences with rugby fans.

Boganette said...

And I'm sorry I know I've derailed quite a bit here but I really have to say that suggesting the Cuba Carnival should be funded over the RWC is totally ridiculous.

It's the equivalent to saying that Jay Day should be funded by tax-payers. Neither have anything to do with the country - they're just excuses to get hammered and high.

I wouldn't go to either. The RWC covers the whole country. Even rural areas will have teams training in them. It's just beyond me how you can compare a nation-wide sporting event that brings people from all over the world to New Zealand to a gross piss-up on Cuba Street full of stoners.

There is NO PURPOSE to the Cuba Carnival. The RWC is a sporting event to see who is the best rugby team at the time. That's the point. People years and years from now are going to talk about the RWC 2011. Nobody is going to talk about the Cuba Carnival 2011.

While it's easy to say: "oh it will just be drunk people 24-7 bla bla bla" You're ignoring all the events like rugby training camps for kids and concerts during the day ahead of matches. Our local turf will be hosting a team from overseas and I can't wait to find out who they are. You can watch training sessions free. But ignore all that and focus on the people who drink and get drunk - just like they do at every single event in NZ regardless of whether it's art or sport because THIS IS NEW ZEALAND. And that's what drunks in NZ do.

And it's pointless to me to whine about tax payer dollars going towards something you're not personally into. There is heaps of shit that's funded that you're probably into that I'm not. Deal with it. And if you don't like the RWC because you don't like rugby rent your house out and get a heap of cash. During the Cuba Carnival I stay home because I know I don't want to be around a bunch of drugged out people wandering the streets.

Carol said...

While some people connect rugby with their experiences of violence, I grew up in a very rugby oriented household and social context, and never saw or experienced domestic violence. So, we need more widespread evidence than the experience of a couple of people.

I think the connection with domestic violence and rugby, has more to do with the surrounding culture, and way it's talked about and represented by some people, rather than the nature of the game. There is similar evidence of the rise in domestic violence associated with football/soccer in the UK.


Police said domestic abuse rises over new year and around derby matches.



So, with the world cup starting today here’s a disgusting yet maybe unsurprising statistic: during the last World Cup the number of reported incidents of domestic violence in the UK increased by around 25-30%.

Nationally and across the five England match days during four-week period of the tournament there was an increase of 25%, this figure was 30% for West Yorkshire, and the national average climbed to more than 30% on the day that the England team were eliminated from the competition.

I'm a rugby fan, but I'm not getting that excited about the world cup. I am not happy about the whole profiteering focus of such events. As with some comments I've heard about the Commonwealth games, I think it's time to wind back such events towards being less of a media/corporate spectacle and more a low key focus on the events.

Carol said...

I agree with Stargazer that corporate interests shouldn't be advertising for volunteers. I think the International Rugby Union doesn't directly work to accumulate & keep their own profits, but they support the corporates that sponsor and televise the games. I assume some of the IRU's profits get put back in the game, and some goes to the TV coverage, etc. So, indirectly they are getting people to work for free, so that the surrounding corporates can take their slice of the pie.

nznative said...

........ So Boganette finds my comments dont help at all .......... help with what ???????.

The fact is that nearly every time I have "drama's " in town with drunk ( drunk is drugged btw ) aggressive people its almost always after a bloody allblacks test or some other rugby fixture.

Another fact is the alcohol drug industry have intertwined themselves into rugby and other major sporting events. They use these events to sell more of their drug ( the booze ).

One more important 'fact' is that domestic violence and violence in general is WORSE when the all blacks win. This is because the violence is directly related to the consumption of alcohol, and people 'celebrate' more when they win ................. they drink more.

And I'm sorry your Cuba carniville experience was so different to all the other Wellingtonians I was mixing with and have spoken too. I can relate to drunks spoiling your night though.

It sounds pretty unique for Wellington to find yourself almost being mauled by a guy on E as opposed to being groped by a pissed munter like usual .

Very strange .

And I'm still sick of the rugby.

Boganette said...

Ok NZ Native - you only have problems with drunk people after All Blacks games? I find that hard to believe. I have problems with drunk people every time I go into town after 10pm.

The "alcohol drug industry" isn't just involved in rugby. It's involved in EVERYTHING. What do you think came first mate? The rugby or the drinking? Everytime there is a concert at any venue in NZ there is drinking. Are the bands promoting the drinking? The venues? There is nowhere you can go without alcohol advertising and/or alcohol being served.

"One more important 'fact' is that domestic violence and violence in general is WORSE when the all blacks win" - What fact? What are you talking about?

People drink regardless of winning or losing.Do you think we should ban rugby altogether? What about all sport? Since there is always a team that wins and a team that loses. You seem to live in a fantasy world where there wouldn't be binge drinking and violence without the All Blacks. Do you feel the same about The Warriors? What about The Phoenix? What about the Black Ferns?

I get it dude - you hate rugby. Awesome. There are heaps of people who hate rugby. But get over yourself. Rugby isn't to blame for every problem we have in this country. Just because you were the last picked at school for the sports team it doesn't mean you have to blame rugby for every single thing wrong in the world.

And "And I'm sorry your Cuba carniville experience was so different to all the other Wellingtonians I was mixing with and have spoken too" - yeah well "all other" people I know who go to rugby matches don't have the same experiences you do either. Maybe because we're not desperately looking for it.

Hugh said...

It's OK Boganette, I understand that when one attacks a subculture one feels invested in the immediate reaction is to be defensive. In a way it's healthy, as long as defensiveness isn't the only thing one experiences. I know what you mean about being a metal fan, too - I'm quite absorbed in punk/goth music fandom and there are a lot of accusations thrown around there, too.

Obviously there are many rugby players who are not only not violent but actively anti-violent and I don't want to take away from that. But I do think that the part rugby plays in NZ bloke culture needs to be examined.

(And I totally agree re: the Cuba Carnival, btw. Although I haven't had your bad experiences I don't think cafe culture and alternative art is any more worthy of state support than rugby, even if it is less violent or I enjoy it marginally more)

Boganette said...

Well said Hugh. I agree. Particularly with this "I do think that the part rugby plays in NZ bloke culture needs to be examined". I won't hold my breath though *sigh*.

Katherine said...

Just regarding your comment in the post about not understanding why people volunteer for commercial ventures like this: I volunteered to usher for the last NZ Ceroc Champs primarily because I thought the tickets were overpriced, but I still wanted to go. Maybe there are parallels with the rugby volunteers, though I have no idea what sort of work the volunteers would be doing and whether they would have the same opportunities I did to see most of the action.

nznative said...

I should point out that the Cuba street carniville ran during the day time as well which was a good time for the younger kids to attend .........

But the whole event featured many bands and artists. Town had more people in it than during New Years eve and in typical Wellington fashion the people were good and friendly.

It made me proud to live in Wellington

It extended down into Dixon street, and all the way down to courtney place.

Bogannets comment about it just being a cuba street piss up for stoners is an outright lie.

Boganette also seems ignorant of the fact that drinking goes up when rugby test matches are on and so does the domestic violence.

The booze industry has intertwined itself into sporting events for one reason only .......... to sell more piss.

The rugby world cup is looking more and more like one glorified piss up.

Oh Yay

Play rugby and drink piss ... or watch rugby and drink piss.

Go the Steinlagers ............

Hugh said...


You think the Cuba Street Carnival isn't ultimately aimed at selling products too?

nznative said...

Well I dont know Hugh ???????? costumes ?, glow sticks, Lattes and flat whites ???

The thing about the carniville I liked was the bands/musicians and dare I say it ......... the carniville atmosphere.

Music and dancing versus .......... rugby and drinking.

I think NZ would be better off with more carnivilles and festiviles and less rugby and drinking.

I think more people are into music and dancing than .......... rugby.

I think musicians and artists who have talent yet who recieve so little are more deserving of council support than that proffessional and totally commercialized sport rugby.

Rugby takes and gets too much in this country.

Come World cup time I wont be supporting the Steinlagers, I can tell you that much.

Boganette said...

NZ Native - this is kind of pointless since you obviously don't read my replies to you.

But anyway -

RWC games will be during the day as well as at night. Training camps will be during the day. Events for kids will also be during the day - signings, meet and greets, competitions etc. People still get drunk during the day so I don't really get what your point is about day-time activities. I take it you haven't ever seen the Sevens if you think having an event during the day stops binge drinking.

"Bogannets comment about it just being a cuba street piss up for stoners is an outright lie." - Don't call me a liar. If you disagree with something that doesn't make it a lie. The Cuba Carnival was no different to Sevens night or NYE when they close off the streets and drunks are everywhere. I saw drunk people EVERYWHERE during the carnival. And people messed up out of their minds on drugs and openly smoking dope. I would not be the only person who saw that. I acknowledge the problems with alcohol at sporting events. Your love for the carnival is great but don't call people liars if they disagree with you. It just makes you look pathetic.

Your other comments - again - don't make sense. "drinking goes up when rugby test matches are on and so does the domestic violence." - What do you mean "goes up"? Do you mean some people drink a lot at rugby events? Of course they do. I totally agree that they do. But the emphasis is on SOME. I grew up going to rugby games with my family - league even (which has even more of a drinking culture than rugby) and I loved it and never saw the kind of epic drinking you seem to think goes on everywhere. I would definitely take my kids to games.

You seem to think that All Blacks games are an orgy of drunkness and violence. It makes me wonder if you've ever been to a game. Sure there are drunk people - just like any NZ event anywhere in NZ.

Jeez don't go to Day on the Green you'd lose your shit over how many drunks there are there.

The whole day is "music and dancing" at a winery. And the whole thing seems to be about drinking. But that's OK right? Because while you're drinking expensive wine out of the bottle you're also dancing?

Your idea that rugby = drinking is weird. It's no different to saying Wellington = drinking or concerts = drinking. It means nothing.

Boganette said...

And NZ native - I think all your comments could essentially be deleted and replaced with "Rugby takes and gets too much in this country".

I get that you don't like rugby. As I've said - lots of people don't like rugby. It's fine to think that in NZ there is too much of a focus on rugby and too much money spent on the All Blacks and rugby. But say that. Don't be disingenuous and claim all rugby fans are boofheads and all rugby matches are fuelled by drunken violence. (Or that all wanky hipster street piss-ups are actually cultural celebrations involving "dance and music").

nznative said...

Bogannet wants me to explain this comment to her ........... "drinking goes up when rugby test matches are on and so does the domestic violence." .

What this statement means is that drinking and levels of alcohol consumption go up when test match rugby is being played, this is desired and expected by the booze companys who " support" the steinlager allblacks.

As a direct result of this rugby and booze partnership the level of street violence, domestic violence and general booze crime goes up when test match's are being played.

I've played 1st 15 rugby, my son has played a season of rugby and it is a violent game. Thats why calls of "smash em" or "knock him on his arse", from the sideline are very common.

The good news is that the grip rugby has on this country is lessening with more kids now playing soccor and other sports or pursuits.

Wanky rugby supporters with their conformist attitudes are part of what holds this country back.

They seem to hate people who appreciate music and art and diss any events which celebrate such things.

They'll even tell lies about events like the cuba carniville and pretend that artists and musicians are not the main focus of these events.

...... anyway the rugby lost me a long time ago.

The final of the world cup will probably feature the steinlagers versus the Henickens ...........

Boganette said...

Oh please. That response is pointless. If you think anyone who disagrees with you is a liar and a "conformist" then you're an idiot. I hate to break it to you buddy but the problem with alcohol in this country is wide-spread and doesn't just involve rugby fans. But by all means continue to stereotype people and cry about how mean rugby fans are to you. And how all the things you like don't have involvement from alcohol groups.

And really - soccer? Haven't been to a Phoenix game then. FULL OF DRUNKS. Oh wait I'm a lair who hates ummmm music? Soccer? ummm God knows what you think I hate.

I think you lost the point a long time ago dude.

Hugh said...

NZnative I will say only this, I'm pretty sure that coffee companies make as handsome a set of profits out of events like the Cuba St Carnival and the coffee culture it promotes as beer companies make out of the Rugby World Cup and the drinking culture it promotes.

nznative said...

Your probably right about the coffee sellers making a good profit during the cuba carniville Hugh.

But Comparing Coffee to
Alcohol ????

Thats like comparing a 12 gauge shotgun to a spud gun.

The police dont plan their staffing levels around times of high coffee consumption, but
thats exactly what they have to
DO with the drug alcohol .

boganette, I dont think everyone who disagrees with me is a liar.

Just you and only on some of your mean rugby head wanky comments ......... the ones with no truth in them.

And when I mentioned kids playing soccor I meant it was good that kids were playing other and better sports than rugby.

The domination of rugby as a sport in this country has been to the detriment of other sports. Its good to see the domination broken.

I used to like rugby ............ but I'm all better now.

stargazer said...

nz native, this is a warning to you that we don't tolerate personal abuse on this blog. this, for example, is not acceptable:

Just you and only on some of your mean rugby head wanky comments ......... the ones with no truth in them.

i'd appreciate it if you could respond to the things you disagree with, without this kind of thing. i appreciate you feel strongly about this issue, but that is no excuse.

Hugh said...

Nznative I'm not gonna engage with you on the wider point since it seems, despite our shared disdain for rugby, we have little common ground.

I just wanted to say that I think you're casting the Cuba Street Carnival as the total antithesis of the World Cup when I think it's only partly an antithesis.

Personally I have no interest in either event. But I think I've made my point as well as I can so I'm gonna shut up now.

nznative said...

my apologies stargazer .........

Boganette had riled me with her unique take on the cuba carniville.

She compared it to "Jay day", said it was only for "cuba street stoners" and "drugged out people wandering the streets".

Unique take she has .......

I used the word "wanky" in response to Boganette's little gem ......" all "wanky hipster street piss-ups".

....... And just on the quiet I think she was lieing about almost being groped by a guy on E.

Why ? .

Because: a) How did she know the guy was on E ?.

b) Did she have a testing kit?, because most e's are not what they are supposed to be.

c) E is usualy a drug of empathy, you dont go around doing things to people that they would not like.

d) Boganette's groper is far more likely to be on the far more common drugs of piss and perhaps methamphetamine which would help explain the sexual assult aspect of her encounter.

Boganette really seems to hate drug takers ...... apart from the boozers.

how very rugby.

nznative said...

Apologies once more stargazer.

I should have refuted Boganette like this instead of lowering the tone ........

Here's a good link to what the cuba street carnival was really about.


"80 bands and DJ’s booked to play on 8 stages and four entertainment zones throughout the streets of Wellington."

"The Meridian Illuminated Night Parade (9pm) is an extravaganza not to be missed, including hundreds and samba dancers and drummers"

"The International Street Performers will astound you with their amazing tricks and stunt"

"Hundreds of Artisan Market stalls"

"There’s also entertainment tailored especially for children"

etc etc etc

and a last link to a great event.


Boganette said...

NZ Native - Dude you are scary hysterical. Just let it go.