Monday, 17 October 2011

If it wasn't for those pesky women leaders we would have won the World Cup

Circulating on Twitter last night was a spectacularly absurd conclusion of a highly erroneous nature;  namely that no country with a female leader has ever won the Rugby World Cup.

The All Black's lost in 1999, 2003 and 2007 because we had Jenny Shipley and then Helen Clark as Prime Minister.  Nevermind that we also lost in 1991 and 1995 under male leadership.  The Wallabies lost last night because Julia Gillard is their current PM.  Ireland lost in 1987 because Mary Robinson was their President.  England lost in 1987 because Thatcher was in power.  There are no other stats to examine because of the 12 teams that have made the quarter finals or above in the entire history of the RWC, these are the only female leaders of these countries, since 1987.  So the vast vast majority of rugby teams who have failed to win the Rugby World Cup have done so under male political leadership.

Correlation is not causation.  And actually it's not good enough to play anti-feminist bingo and say you are joking when what you are doing is perpetuating misogyny.


Phoenix said...

What the... ? People's stupidity constantly amazes me.

Anonymous said...

This is ridiculous. I'm very glad I missed it last night on twitter. What a stupid, stupid, stupid idea.

Scott Chris said...

Perhaps you shouldn't rise to the bait. The kind of people who make this sort of comment are aware of their specious reasoning, so their only motive is to provoke a reaction.

React, and they win. If you feel you must react to make a political point, then I suggest using humour, for this reason. The impression I have of feminists as a whole is their humourlessness and self righteousness. Time for a PR makeover I reckon.

Sincerely (hopefully not seen as patronizingly),


A Nonny Moose said...

Yes, Scott, you WERE incredibly patronizing, breaking out the usual bingo spot of calling feminists humourless. Editing a person's response because it doesn't match yours is a typical shut down tactic. Telling someone "not to react" is typical bully behaviour too, an effort to silence, because they'll continue to push buttons no matter what.

Brett Dale said...

Yeppers some people are idiots, what about all the other sporting victories, countries have had under female Prime Ministers and Leaders.

I mean why would anyone even write something like that.

When anyone mentions something like that (I know this might be slightly off subject) I think of a poster my niece has in her room of Mia Hamm (Usa woman's soccer player)

The poster is of Mia with the Words, "When you say I play like a girl, I take it as a compliment"

Scott Chris said...

A Nonny Moose

I didn't intend to be patronizing. I was giving my honest opinion.

Would you rather I patronized you by sugar coating what I say to spare your feelings?

I agree with the feminist movement, that is why I'd like to see your message more effectively conveyed.

Try not to be so sensitive.

stargazer said...

uh scott, telling us what to write or how to write it doesn't wash on this site. since you appear to be a new commentor and absolutely ignorant of the fact that your comments are so tired and old that they've been made about 50 million times before on any number of sites by any number of morons who pretend to "care" and shot down very well, i'll let them stand. but i suggest you actually educate yourself about feminism and stop giving us the kindergarten grade comments. it's pretty boring.

here's a hint: type feminism 101 into an internet search engine and start reading. because you're really coming across as not having a clue, and it isn't our job to educate you. and guess what, feminism will survive quite well if you fail to champion it.

Mikaere Curtis said...

And the reasoning is even more flawed when you consider that the Black Ferns have won the Rugby World Cup three times while we had female PMs (1998, 2002, 2006).

LudditeJourno said...

What about all the World Cups the Black Ferns have won, under Jenny Shipley (1998) and Helen Clark (2002 and 2006)?
Oh, that's right, that's not real rugby. Funny.

Scott Chris said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
stargazer said...

yeah, dude and best you take a course in listening. until then, kiwiblog is the best place for you. and to paraphrase melissa mcewan, i'm not angry, i'm contemptuous.

LudditeJourno said...

Scott -
the "ideas" your first comment illustrates, and my take on the problem with them:
1. Try replacing "feminists" in your sentence beginning "The impression I have......." with ANY other phrase.
Let's try "men" say, or "white people". The sentence continues to be/becomes if you haven't seen it already, completely ridiculous because it is such a generalisation. Really, all feminists, not funny and self righteous???? Read Jackie Fleming? Enjoyed the irreverance of Kirsten Schall? Both feminists, both off the top of my head. Gross generalisations are often offensive and suggest nothing more than ignorance, and sometimes arrogance, by the person using them.
2. Telling other people what to do repeatedly often comes across as patronising. You've obviously clocked this with your sign off. In your comment you tell feminists not to "rise to the (boring and misogynist) bait"; use humour if you "have to" react; and stop being so "humourless and self righteous." These suggestions would be patronising to any group. I'm fairly sure feminists will have a range of ways of managing any one issue we decide we care about. We'll decide how we handle it.
3. Talking about something being sexist and misogynist is something feminists do. Many feminists welcome pro-feminist people's interaction with these kinds of discussions. This is not how your first comment comes across.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
stargazer said...

there are a couple of paragraphs above the comment box that tell you about our policy regarding anonymous comments.

Scott Chris said...

LudditeJourno says:- "my take on the problem with them"

I said, "My impression of feminists as a whole...."

1) Are you suggesting that the way in which I process information is flawed? I can substitute any noun into that phrase, and it will produce a valid taxonomic idea.

2)I used "perhaps" and "I suggest" ingenuously. Therefore the subtext is not imperative.

3) I concede that I should have chosen my words more carefully, as the reaction they provoked was not what I anticipated and therefore not conducive to a free exchange of ideas, so my approach could be described as naive when viewed objectively.

Apologies for any offence perceived.

Still I learned a thing or two, so from my perspective at least, it has been a positive encounter.

Regarding Kirsen Schall, I'm a recent convert. I've seen her a few times on the Jon Stewart show, and especially enjoyed her piece entitled "Mandate & Pro-Vagina Controversy"

nznative said...

Its just rugby humour ............. stupid, boorish, outdated and sexist....

Now if there was only one code of rugby instead of rugby league and rugby union then I'd say the Aussies would beat us fairly consistently.

Mikaere Curtis said...

nznative, I wouldn't call it rugby humour - its just plain sexism.

Rugby humour can be funny, like the Weepu virals that went out last week, especially the one where he exhorts John Key to get onto the Rena problem as he doesn't have time to do *everything* around here.

Apologies for any offence perceived.

Scott, that's a weasel apology. Offence isn't something you perceive, it is something that you cause[.

Julie said...

Thx for the comments and discussion.

A few observations.

1. Doing nothing changes nothing. While as an individual ignoring bullying and nasty comments might be a strategy that works in some contexts (and is definitely a way to cope which I know I've used myself), personally I find it far better to get some support from friends and challenge the discrimination. Calling out and naming are powerful actions in themselves.

2. @Scott I think you have good intentions, but the reaction you've received is genuine. As others have pointed out, some of us have had this discussion too many times to want to do it again and again and again. People (feminists, anarchists, libertarians, whoever) are going to organise in the way they want to, communicate in the style they want to use, and while you may want to provide constructive feedback to genuinely assist, you need to be prepared for a response that is a less polite version of "thanks but no thanks."

3. There are plenty of feminists who communicate with humour, indeed one of our most successful posts here of all time is this one: Feminist gets a wax, anaesthetises crotch with feminism. Most people are funny some of the time. In my experience feminists can be hilarious, and not just through sarcasm (which is a lower form of wit that I never indulge in myself, never ever ever).

Scott Chris said...

Mikaere Curtis said:- "Scott, that's a weasel apology. Offence isn't something you perceive, it is something that you cause."

Certainly I caused the offence, as I made the comment. Anything anyone says can cause offence, depending on the threshold of sensitivity of the offended party.

Described in morally relative terms, it is common for neither the offender or the offendee to be acting against their own moral principles but still for offence to be caused.

Therefore, my apology was sufficient in my view, but not in yours. That is the nature of a pluralistic society. I take *reasonable* care to respect others, but I don't pander to what I consider to be unreasonable sensitivity.

I could have taken offence myself with the 'weasel' ad hom, but I didn't as my offence sensitivity threshold is relatively high.

Scott Chris said...

Julie says:- "As others have pointed out, some of us have had this discussion too many times to want to do it again and again and again."

Fair enough. Still, you won't be surprised when the next liberal blunders in here with patronizing but good intentions. Not sure if it is innate or conditioned, but a man's 'hero instinct' isn't all bad IMO.

A Nonny Moose said...

Scott, you sure must be a multi limbed person to keep sticking your foot in your mouth so much. "Hero Instinct"? By all things holy, are there any MORE bingo spots you can hit? It's called White Knighting, and we really don't some big strong fella to save us poor fainting ladeez. *eyeroll*

Do what was suggested earlier. Look up Feminism 101 and Derailing For Dummies. I'm seriously beginning to think you're some sort of troll, needing to have the last word on everything.

Scott Chris said...

A Nonny Moose says: "It's called White Knighting"

I'm not sure what your point is here. Cliches are cliches for a reason. I'm quite happy to be a living cliche. Makes me feel validated.

-"Look up Feminism 101 and Derailing For Dummies.

Attacking the person again I see. Have you ever examined your subconscious motives for behaving this way?

-"I'm seriously beginning to think you're some sort of troll"

Nope, just like to argue. It satisfies my inner child... Oh crikey, which hackneyed concept have I stepped in this time?

Go on, let the little boy have the last word if it'll shut him up ;)

A Nonny Moose said...

Good comeback, bro. Now trit trot back under your little bridge.

Anonymous said...